Hosting Nightmare.

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Posted by vsomored, 01-31-2002, 04:08 PM
I have had my site with ResellerMatrix, since the beginning of my contract they have been pretty much unreachable on the phone. For the 30 hours my service has been down. What a nightmare. No mail, website...... basically no nothing but my landline phone and office. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do? I am thinking about moving my service to another provider IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by Chicken; 04-25-2002 at 07:01 PM.
Posted by ASPCode.net, 01-31-2002, 04:22 PM
I feel sorry for you, this is the worst situation for a reseller. 1. Search this forum on ResellerMatrix which will convince you to 2. Find another host I had plans about going with them for my Unix hosting a while ago but got a dedicated with RS instead. Seems like the right choice.
Posted by Precise, 01-31-2002, 07:37 PM
Yes, I agree.. Worst possible situation for a reseller... you don;t know what is going on, hence, you have nothing to tell to your clients as to why you are down. Some resellers have no concern for the health of their client's businesses. At least with a dedicated, you know whats happening most of the time and can relay that to your clients. Good luck finding a new host. Maybe try dedicated? Patrick
Posted by cannon71, 01-31-2002, 11:19 PM
For those of you that are experiencing downtime with ResellerMatrix please call our toll-free emergency support number at: (866)257-3114. We've been doing our best to keep our resellers updated via our e-mail and by phone on the situation. ResellerMatrix was recently acquired by Cedura Networks and is transitioning over to its network. However there have been some blocks in the road which have caused servers which had been online for as much as 2 years consecutively (a good sign of reliability, don't you think?) to be unreachable (however they are still online, the traffic is simply being redirected). Please give us a call if you are effected, we have a 24/7 dedicated support staff on-hand to assist you. Mike Lavers Cedura Networks (formerly ResellerMatrix) Last edited by cannon71; 01-31-2002 at 11:24 PM.
Posted by cannon71, 01-31-2002, 11:21 PM
vsomored et al. Please keep in mind that the above poster is a competitor and has his best interests in mind.
Posted by ASPCode.net, 02-01-2002, 09:16 AM
I am no competitor of ResellerMatrix. I offer no reseller program. And I mainly focus on Windows hosting.
Posted by justhostin, 02-02-2002, 03:09 AM
We were with Reseller Matrix, too. They sent us an email and said they were going out of business and we had 30 days to move our files. About 4 hours later everything was gone! Fortunately, we had already signed up with another company a couple of months ago and had already moved several of our accounts over, but we had a mess on our hands with those that were left. Here is a copy of what Reseller Matrix sent us: Dear Valued Reseller, Due to unforeseen circumstances a number of our old servers have been prematurely re-routed to our new data center network. Since the old and new IPs are different this has caused some accounts to be temporarily unreachable. We apologize for this inconvenience. We are making every effort to get your account(s) online and functioning. You may have also already received your new account information details via e-mail. If so, we recommend transferring your domain names to the new name servers as soon as possible. For reference the new nameservers are: - HYDROGEN.CEDURA.NET = IP Address (primary) - NITROGEN.CEDURA.NET = IP Address (secondary) For those of you who have not received their new account information details, we are working to get it to you ASAP. You may be contacted via phone by one of our technical support personnel to confirm that youve received it and to assist you with transferring your domains. We also have a toll-free number so you can contact us with assistance: (866)257-3114 The Help Desk will also be back online shortly. Its domain and IP will be announced at that time. We would like to thank you for your understanding and patience while we move to our own data center network. Your business is valued and appreciated. Best regards, Cedura/ResellerMatrix Team --------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by justhostin, 02-02-2002, 03:15 AM
I had to split my reply into two posts because it's so long. I would highly recommend MCHost.com. Their support is great! After being with Reseller Matrix, we were shocked with actual responses to our problems and they have a forum where resellers can help each other too. They don't offer the AlaCart shopping cart and the control panel is a little different, but they are solid and they communicate with you. A lot of people had a lot of complaints about Reseller Matrix, but we were trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. We should have listened. All of the talk I've heard of MCHost.com has been good and our experience has been good. Hope this helps. Good luck.
Posted by signals2112, 02-02-2002, 02:17 PM
The reason their original IP's aren't working is that their original servers were shut off. I called for support Wednesday night and one of their techs told me they were caught while transferrring everything over to their Nevada center and Alabanza turned the switch off on their equipment. The data on the transferred sites was up to 2 weeks old with no current backups. One of my newly posted sites was empty and they said Alabanza had their stuff and they couldn't restore the data for me. They tried to pull a Baltimore and got caught. Stay far away from them!
Posted by dev_null, 02-02-2002, 08:34 PM
RM's problem is (was - I don't know how Cedura will be) that they just don't communicate with their customers. They tried really hard to make sure you didn't get them on the phone, and their email support was usually terse, and not always helpful. Still - I might have stayed with them for their reliability, even thru the move, even thru the SNAFUs, if they'd only had the business sense to communicate with me. The first I heard that their move was starting was when a customer called me complaining his ftp access didn't work. They didn't keep me in the loop as to what was going on with the move. The new nameservers resolved new IP's for my domains, but were they what I was supposed to be giving my customers? Their emails suggested that their new nameservers would now be authoritative, but they failed to resolve intermittantly all week. What was the problem? Were there any more surprises in store they hadn't told me about yet? Anybody in business who has customers knows that keeping their attention only helps you, and that giving them the news is good even when it's bad news. That's why not long after RM's surprise migration began, I told all my customers (and called the ones who hadn't already called me), that our service was down, but we would be back up as soon as I had them moved them onto our new provider.
Posted by WebSun, 02-02-2002, 09:36 PM
Is Mike Lavers from Cedura not the same Mike Lavers from RM??? http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...ht=Mike+Lavers
Posted by Incognito, 02-02-2002, 09:42 PM
There are other fine hosts there. I highly recommend successfulhosting.com. This is for those who may use Ala Cart and need to keep the same capability.
Posted by Chicken, 02-03-2002, 01:39 PM
Errrrr... yes. I'm not sure what the question is exactly, the end of his post stated this: Mike Lavers Cedura Networks (formerly ResellerMatrix) We've had a bit of trouble with Mike in the past but no problems lately.
Posted by Incognito, 02-03-2002, 01:51 PM
Another name before resellermatrix with many of the same players. I don't remember all the details, but seems there is more history to this. And with Mike continuing doesn't seem to be a clear break. Hopefully, someone can fill in the missing pieces and explain clearly what has gone on and what is going on.
Posted by vsomored, 02-03-2002, 04:07 PM
I have had contact with the upstream provider of RM, Alabanza. They informed me that the reason why they pulled the drives configured to be for RM was non payment. I was also informed to disregard the e-mail which announced that RM was bought out by another company. This would not be the case. I assume that since RM is gone, the (so said on paper) new company does not assume responsibility. Given the fact that I have been out of work since Alabanza pulled their drive. Who is going to live up to the SLA, and refund of resting funds. I have already lost about 10 contracts so far. Unfortunately these contract were all consulting contracts only. If this goes on like this I can close my business as my core business is consulting.
Posted by cannon71, 02-05-2002, 12:21 AM
These claims by Alabanza are absolutely false. ResellerMatrix was Alabanza's second largest customer (first being Jumpline). In mid-2000 ResellerMatrix began to just liscense Alabanza's software and colocating our own servers in their data center. Just as in Jumpline's situation, our relationship with Alabanza simply became uneconomical and we needed to gain independence from them if we were to continue operations. Essentially they were bleeding us dry (and Jumpline as well). Each month they had higher licensing rates, while their software accumulated more and more bugs/errors. Our intentions were to part ways with Alabanza peacefully. We arranged pre-payment and licensing two-months in advance for the transition to our own data center. Once it became clear to Alabanza that they were about to lose a substantial portion of their business they decided it would be in their best interest to yank our servers. If Alabanza would have cooperated with us we would have had all of our clients sites transferred in less than 72 hours. However, since they decided instead to be obtrusive it took us 2 weeks. Overall, it is and was an unfortunate situation and we have done everything in our power to assist our resellers to get their customers back online. Alabanza kind of pulled the rug out from under us and our resellers (and their customers) were the ones hurt. If there are other companies such as ours (or Jumpline) who are looking to gain independence from Alabanza please feel free to e-mail us at admin@cedura.net and we can assist you with transferring your accounts automatically to your own servers. I hope this clears things up a bit for all those who are interested.
Posted by vsomored, 04-02-2002, 03:00 AM
Let's take a look at this. Cedura networks is RM. Mike has just registered an other company. Just because the bills were paid 18 of the past 24 months doesn't mean you have reliable servers. The servers were managed and maintained by Alabanza (Meaning Alabanza would have reliable servers). [QOUTE]we have a 24/7 dedicated support staff on-hand to assist you[/QUOTE] I have tried to contact Cedura at numerous times since January. No response. Where is the 24/7 support???? I have mailed CEDURA several times to cancel my account since January and surpprisingly they tried to bill my credit card again today (They still did not credit my account either). BUYER BEWARE: CEDURA = RESELLERMATRIX ResellerMatrix was never bought out by Cedura. Last edited by vsomored; 04-02-2002 at 03:18 AM.
Posted by chihuahuabot, 04-04-2002, 03:19 PM
Dodged a bullet there... I considered signing with these guys a few months ago. (whew) Last edited by chihuahuabot; 04-04-2002 at 10:40 PM.
Posted by rbro, 04-04-2002, 07:29 PM
I am surprised to see all this negativity towards Alabanza. We recently started using their software and have been really happy with it (as have our customers). Yes, they're expensive, but their software is really the only fully turnkey hosting solution I have seen that includes billing, order form integration as well as all the automated account features. I have looked at H-Sphere, SWSOft, FreeVSD, Sphera (don't ask), Ensim, CPanel/WHM (which we use as well), but so far I am happiest with Alabanza.
Posted by TMX, 04-04-2002, 10:19 PM
I've been with various Alabanza resellers over the past three years or so, and have found that the bulk of the problems I've experienced were the fault of the resellers overloading their machines, or not having the technical knowledge to fix the occasional problem that would pop up (hello linuxwebhost & jumpline). Alabanza has had some network problems along the way, but I cant recall anything major. I've been with my current Alabanza reseller since last June, and the service has been rock-steady. This is changing rapidly, and I think Alabanza is either going to have to adjust it's pricing, or lose even more customers than they have already. Think about it, how many Jumplines do you think they can afford to lose before they start to take a real hit financially? Not too many, I would suspect. I think it's only a matter of time before good, stable, and user-friendly control panel and billing systems are commonplace, thereby lowering the value of what they're offering. Personally, I would pay Alabanza's asking price for the hosting/billing system they offer right now, but their bandwidth and setup fees are outrageously overpriced. The quote I got just one week ago was $10/gig bandwidth for overage, $6/gig in blocks purchased ahead of time. That's more than double the price of quality bandwidth from their competitors. The thousand dollar setup fee is, well,....laughable. They're not the only game in town anymore, but I don't think they've realized it yet. Neither did IBM, come to think of it. -Bob
Posted by vsomored, 04-12-2002, 03:54 PM
I do not see any negativity towards Alabanza. They are not the discussed party here.
Posted by vsomored, 04-12-2002, 04:00 PM
Is Dave stupid or what? I have already reported Dave Lavers aka Reseller Matrix aka Cedura Networks to the credit card companies and BBB. After several e-mails this guy stilll sends me emails like this. I have mailed this idiot several times to cancel my account. After their disk was pulled due to non payment. No refund of funds have been received for the remaining 3 months. This guy should not be in business, maybe I might be able to reserve a spot for him at the world's biggest idiot hall of fame. Last edited by vsomored; 04-13-2002 at 11:38 AM.
Posted by MBill Admin, 04-13-2002, 02:28 AM
Quite an interesting post. I'll take this in and tuck it away for a rainy day. Don't bother with any telephone numbers... none are working. Emergency number... right.
Posted by DesElms, 04-15-2002, 07:51 PM
Whatever you do, at all prices, stay away from ResellerMatrix or Cedura Networks, OpenHSP or whatever the infamous Lavers are calling themselves these days. It's far worse than most of you realize. ResellerMatrix has been banned from these forums in the past -- I believe for spamming, but Chicken, I'm sure, can provide more detail. However, spamming is the *LEAST* of this egregious family's despicable behaviors. Most of us read about bad actors, generally, on the Internet -- unconscionable opportunists with no ethical guidepost or moral compass. We all get spammed by the likes of them every day. And it gives us comfort, perhaps, to convince ourselves that most of them are part of some nameless, faceless hoard of credit card scammers and others who live in places like Indonesia or Bulgaria or other places that just couldn't be the United States. And, despite all the talk, few of us in this life actually have occasion to come in contact with or be victimized by such nefarious characters. But David, Michael and Andrew Lavers (father, older son and younger son, respectively) of Cascadian Systems Group, HostingMatrix, Lavers and Lavers, MatrixCubed, ResellerMatrix, Cedura Networks, and not OpenHSP are the genuine article! Words like "scammers" or phrases like "con men" don't even begin to describe these three stunningly arrogant individuals. In 1996, then 45-year-old David Lavers, a Redmond, Washington-area Microsoft contractor who operated under the name Cascadian Systems Group, helped his then 14-year-old son, Michael, form the hosting company "HostingMatrix." Michael, according to the elder Lavers, was something of a prodigy, having learned to program computers when he was only 3 years old, thereby making him an old pro with 11 years experience by the time the fledgling hosting company was formed. By 1999 HostingMatrix was an Alabanza provider that allegedly had over 200 customers and was growing fast. The additional company names "Lavers and Lavers," "MatrixCubed" and "ResellerMatrix" were, by then, also being used by the Lavers. At that point, the then 48-year-old father, David, had a 50% stake in the operation and was the company's "COO." Son, Michael, by then 17, had a 40% stake and was its "CTO." And Michael's then 14-year-old younger brother, Andrew, had, by his father's own admission in a 1999 WIRED article, been "lured" into the business and had a 10% equity stake. Young Andrew was the "Support Manager." In mid-2000, not knowing any of the above, I made the mistake of signing-up with ResellerMatrix because I wanted to experience an Alabanza reseller account -- to get to know the control panel and other features. But I immediately noticed that ResellerMatrix's support was virtually non-existent. And I complained heartily, which complaints fell on deaf ears. One day I got a phone call at work from the elder David Lavers. At the time I worked for NOLO.COM -- a long-time friend of consumers in need of legal help. Lavers accused me of posting, using an alias or pseudonym, a "slanderous" review of ResellerMatrix on a web site devoted to listing and reviewing hosting resellers. He made threats and was generally obnoxious. I later went to the site and found that others were experiencing the same problems that I was. So I posted, there, an account of my phone conversation with Lavers -- leaving to the reader to decide if his was the kind of intimidating behavior one would expect from one's hosting company. I then cancelled my ResellerMatrix account and signed-up with Hosting Matters (an *EXCELLENT* company, I'd like to point out). And, being uncomfortable with people of the Lavers caliber having my credit card number, I changed that, too. A couple of months earlier -- in April of 2000 -- Washington State Attorney General Christine O. Gregoire had formed a special high-tech investigative unit that was charged with "enforcing the state's consumer protection laws by focusing on violations committed in cyberspace, supporting local police and prosecutors in investigating and prosecuting online crime and educating the public about online crime and how to avoid being victimized." On October 18th, 2000, the Washington Attorney General's High-tech Unit charged out of the gate with its very first two filings against cyber bad guys -- one of which was captioned as follows: STATE OF WASHINGTON, v. MATRIXCUBED INTERNET SERVICES, LLC, a Washington for-profit corporation; CASCADIAN SYSTEMS GROUP, a Washington sole proprietorship, LAVERS AND LAVERS, a Washington partnership, DAVID LAVERS, individually and on behalf of his marital community, as a manager of MATRIXCUBED INTERNET SERVICES, LLC, as sole proprietor of CASCADIAN SYSTEMS GROUP and as partner in LAVERS AND LAVERS, and MICHAEL LAVERS, individually, as a manager of MATRIXCUBED INTERNET SERVICES, LLC and as partner in LAVERS AND LAVERS, Defendants. The complaint alleged that MatrixCubed violated the state's Consumer Protection Act by failing to make refunds, provide its promised 24-hour technical support, provide services paid for and respond to complaints. The lawsuit also alleged that MatrixCubed misrepresented the number of Internet users who can simultaneously visit sites it hosts. The six-count complaint asked the court to issue a permanent injunction enjoining the defendants from further unlawful conduct; that it order the defendants to pay a $2,000 fine for each and every violation documented by the 17 consumers whose requests for help from the Attorney General's Office lead to the suit in the first place; that the court order the defendants to pay restitution; and that the court order the defendants to reimburse the state for attorney's fees and prices of prosecution. After learning of this action, I went back to the aforementioned reseller review web site and posted another message notifying everyone of the Attorney General's action, and feeling pretty good about the fact that I had obviously not misjudged the Lavers; that I had correctly seen them for the criminals they were. This apparently sent the Lavers off the deep end, because suddenly the ResellerMatrix review area of that web site was spammed with hundreds of juvenile postings attempting to trash me and using out-of-context excerpts from articles written about me and some of my community and political efforts -- specifically my ongoing battle against particular kinds of organized criminal activities related to prostitution and the abuse of women and children both in the US and abroad -- articles describing accomplishments of which I am proud and the disclosure of which causes me no shame or embarrassment, contrary to what the posters clearly intended. It would seem, also, that the Lavers either used fake names and email addresses, or asked their friends, to make postings on the site that were positive about ResellerMatrix. Sadly, the disingenuous and juvenile nature of those postings was easily recognized by any parentally experienced adult eye as the work of a mere teenager trying to make a sad and desperate point. continued in next post... Last edited by DesElms; 04-21-2002 at 05:33 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-15-2002, 07:52 PM
The owner of that reseller review web site -- a very nice young man whom I have since gotten to know a little... and whom I like -- simply deleted the spams and then wrote a script to keep such postings from making it to his web pages in the future. He told me the Lavers had contacted him and had threatened to sue him for libel (actually they threatened to sue him for "slander," apparently not realizing the fundamental difference between that and "libel") for allowing my postings on his site. Unfortunately for the Lavers, the young man had the good advice of both myself, and his father who just happened to be an attorney. We advised him, and correctly so, that anything anyone writes in a public forum cannot be libelous as long as it is provably true. And, obviously, everything I wrote there -- just as everything I'm writing here -- is provably true. So the young man simply ignored the Lavers which, I have learned, is the best way to deal with them, their empty threats, and the hysterical protestations and intimidation they tend to unleash upon anyone who dares to publicly expose them, as I have done before and as I am happily doing again right now. I have tried not to care about the Lavers since then. I have better things to do. I had hoped that the Attorney General's action would put an end to the Lavers' ability to hurt others any more. So you can imagine my disappointment at learning, from reading this thread, that they're still at it. Today I called Paula Selis, who was Senior Counsel on the aforementioned Attorney General's complaint, and I asked her what the outcome was on her October 2000 consumer protection filing against the Lavers. She told me the state got its day in court and had won its judgement against them. She said the Court had issued an order severely restricting the Lavers' activities within the State of Washington -- which I suppose explains why the trio has now opened-up shop under a different name (Cedura Networks) and in a different city and state (Reno, Nevada -- where hustlers and lowlifes like the Lavers flourish and where, therefore, they should feel right at home), and using server IP addresses and DNS servers that are located at HostSeguro in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Selis put me in touch with an investigator from her office whom she has promised will make it his business to learn of the Lavers current activities in Nevada -- or, perhaps more accurately, still from the Redmond area, but simply with a private mailbox address in Nevada... which, I strongly suspect, is more likely what's actually happening since Cedura Networks' address of 8175 S. Virginia St. Ste 850, Reno NV, is also the same address as a private mailbox service called "Let US Mail" with the phone number (775) 853-6245. Selis promised that the investigator would report back to her promptly, and that her office would then take whatever action was appropriate. And I have no doubt that it will. If there's one thing that Ms Selis -- and her co-counsel, Senior Assistant Attorney General Sally Gustafson -- have demonstrated in this case is that they know how to put their money where their mouths are. If ever there were a time when it would not pay to be one of the Lavers boys, this would appear to be it. Nothing angers a judge more (or faster) than a defendant who flies in the face of a court order. And judges, when meting-out punishment for contempt of court, have in their little bag of tricks the option of giving jail time. I dare say the next time the Lavers appear in *that* judge's court -- and I suspect they soon will -- they should probably bring their toothbrushes. David Lavers, in my opinion, should be the poster child for the movement that espouses the notion that people should have to graduate from a course and then get a license before becoming a parent. And I am apparently not the first person who thought so. The author of the aforementioned 1999 WIRED article was obviously worried that perhaps the father, David, had not provided his boys, Michael and Andrew, with an ideal upbringing. The author asked Lavers if his fat equity stake in his son's business had tainted his parental priorities, to which Lavers casually replied, "Michael's not an A student, but the time he would have spent getting As, he's spent building MatrixCubed. I'm OK with that. I'd be perfectly delighted if Michael, when he's 35, could stop working and go back to school and learn because he wants to learn. Clearly, he doesn't need vocational skills, and I don't want him to go for the reasons I did -- because it was where all the other sheep were heading." Just one year after that 1999 WIRED article was written, with Michael barely 18, David's stellar parenting skills had accomplished little more than landing both him and his still-impressionable son squarely in the crosshairs of the highest-ranking law enforcement officer in the State of Washington, who summarily filed (and later won) a pseudo-criminal civil action against them which comes just about as close to a full fledged criminal indictment as is legally possible in white collar cases of this type. Having apparently learned nothing from the experience, the now 50-year-old father seems to be continuing the lessons he's taught his now 20-year-old son, Michael, and Michael's now 17-year-old younger brother, Andrew, as David introduces them to the fine art of changing identity (from ResellerMatrix to Cedura Networks) and venue (from Redmond to Reno)... ...skills the wise and elder Lavers apparently realizes that every good con man must master early in life. Now the Lavers appear to be operating a hosting company called "OpenHSP." And from postings elsewhere in these forums, they're up to their same old fraudulent, spamming tricks. They're using a group of IP addresses (66.122.87.32 to 66.122.87.39) that are registered directly to Michael Lavers through PacBell -- or at least they were until yesterday (posts elsewhere in WHT demonstrated that people had caught on to them and it apparently scare them off... yet again). And a check of DNS reveals that most of those IP addresses are DSL circuits (or at least bear DSL circuit names) through Nevada Bell Internet (nvbell.net). The OpenHSP web site variously appears and disappears. Obviously Mike Lavers is trying to move it around again -- just like his father taught him. In the 1999 WIRED article, father David Lavers suggested that when Michael is 35 he could stop working and go back to school, adding that Michael didn't need vocational skills; and that he didn't want him to go to college just because all the other "sheep" were also doing so. Personally, with the upbringing Michael's received, and the role model his father has been to him, I fear that, when Michael is 35, at least *one* of the things he'll be is a convicted felon. And if he hasn't by then experienced prison, I fear it will certainly be in his cards. If so, then one thing Michael will definitely have time for in prison is going back to school or learning a few vocational skills. And while he's there, I suspect a few of his bunkies will teach him what it *really* means to be a sheep. Stay away from the Lavers, ladies and gentlemen -- and their Cedura Networks or their ResellerMatrix or OPenHSP of whatever names by which they go these days. Run! Run far. Run fast. And don't look back. REFERENCES AND RELATED LINKS: http://www.matrixcubed.com http://www.resellermatrix.net http://www.cedura.com http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,32011,00.html http://www.wa.gov/ago/clearinghouse/hi_tech.html http://www.wa.gov/ago/releases/rel_hitech_101800.html http://www.law.washington.edu/lct/te...AG_hitech.html http://www.wa.gov/ago/pubs/2000AnnualReport.pdf (see PDF page 17 (document page 13) of 76) http://www.resellerconnection.com/re...x&OrderBy=date http://www.resellerconnection.com/re...s&OrderBy=date http://www.webhosters.com/web_host_f...ompany_id=1794 http://lists.f-body.org/pipermail/nc...er/006910.html http://www.thebbb.org/report.html?co...133&national=Y http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...ht=Mike+Lavers http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...resellermatrix http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...resellermatrix http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hlight=openhsp http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hlight=openhsp (Updated 4/21/2002 to reflect new OpenHSP info.) IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 12:12 PM.
Posted by MBill Admin, 04-15-2002, 09:09 PM
DesElms, Thank you.
Posted by vsomored, 04-17-2002, 05:56 AM
This is the last email dave had send me: [e-mail] Dear Valued Customers, Over the next month we will be in the process of upgrading our billing system. As some of you may know, we have been using ModernBill (www.modernbill.com) for our billing, however due to several unforseen bugs in the software -- many billing errors have resulted. Including double-billing (we are working to correct all cases of this), multiple invoice generation, continued billing after cancellation, etc. If you are currently using ModernBill or have plans to for your hosting serice we HIGHLY recommend looking elsewhere for your billing solution. We plan to revert to our own system which will resolve many of the billing issues we've been experiencing. We also have several plans for additional services and features that will make managing your customers accounts more convenient, such as; integrating the ResellerPanel into the control panel, domain name management, account upgrades, and more. Thank you for your patience, we are sure you will like what you see in the upcoming months. - Cedura Staff [/e-mail] Gosh, how stupid can you be Dave???? I should have been removed from your system a long time ago.
Posted by vsomored, 04-17-2002, 05:56 AM
Tanks DESELMS Last edited by vsomored; 04-17-2002 at 06:12 AM.
Posted by Peeps, 04-17-2002, 08:18 AM
Wow. Gregg, that has to be the most informative post (okay, two posts ) I have EVER read at this forum. Bravo.
Posted by MBill Admin, 04-17-2002, 11:00 AM
I really didn't want to post anything about this, but I guess I have to now. vsomored, What are you referring to? As for the email you received from Dave Lavers about ModernBill: 1. Cedura has made no attempt to contact us to help him with his billing issue.. EVER! 2. Mr. Lavers and his staff have made no attempt to use any of our support mechanisms to support his license of ModernBill. 3. We were also sent this same email and immediatly contacted them to help them with their issue. They final aswered numerous phone calls and emails, but still to this day have not used our support we offer. Conclusion: They may have some billing issues, but you might need to look beyond any software to understand the problem. vsomored, if you have any questions about ModernBill, please contact us at admin@modernbill.com.
Posted by DesElms, 04-17-2002, 12:55 PM
I'm sorry I made everyone wade through such a long post (or, more accurately, posts, plural). But I wanted to get everyone up-to-speed on the Lavers once and for all. With every new message that I read in this thread I kept waiting for someone to come forth with the facts about them; to make sure that everyone knew that these are not simply guys running a hosting company and just doing it badly. They're bona fide crooks! "Doesn't anyone realize this?" I kept saying to myself. It was a feeling very similar to the one I had in 1989 when I was watching CBS News coverage of the Loma Prieta earthquake in the Bay area. I was living in Chicago at the time, but I was very familiar with the highways in the East Bay. It was early in the catastrophe as I watched in disbelief while CBS News anchor Dan Rather commented on the views from the helicopter of the elevated Cypress Street span of I-880. He kept talking about how lucky it was that, from the air, it appeared no one was injured on the obviously-damaged freeway segment. "Obviously damaged!" I exclaimed aloud, incredulously. I could tell that Rather didn't realize he was looking at a double-decker style highway where the upper level had collapsed on top of the lower level, probably crushing hundreds of cars beneath. I remember the frustration of knowing something that the folks I was watching and listening to obviously didn't yet know. The feeling as I read this thread was similar. So I chimed-in, as I have done in other places, and for which the Lavers have always, in their juvenile way, tried to punish me somehow. But, never with the impact upon me for which they had hoped. Not even once. By the way... is it my imagination, or is there suddenly a deafening silence from "cannon71"? No comment, Michael? Cat got your tongue? As with all con artists, the Lavers' true impotence and smallness becomes painfully apparent to everyone once the shroud has been pulled away and their anti-social behavior has been exposed to the light of day. It's sort of how a cat looks after it's been thrown into a swimming pool -- all skinny and trembling and wet as it skulks away with its tail between its legs and a combined look of humilation and anger on its normally aloof face. The Lavers are consummate blowhards -- puffing their chests and threatening to sic their lawyers on those who challenge them as I have. I'd actually welcome the opportunity to chat with their lawyers. Trouble is, they don't have any. They appeared in court at the hearing on the State of Washington case (mentioned in my earlier post) unrepresented -- the elder Lavers trying to defend himself, his corporation and his son (the last two of which the court would not let him do because he isn't an attorney). A man who has a "team of lawyers" behind him, as Lavers once threatened to me that he had, does not show-up in court on a case as big as that one without counsel. The guy clearly has delusions of omnipotence -- as is not uncommon with arrogant, pathological types like David Lavers. But the judge would have no part of it -- or the Lavers' shenanigans, generally. The Court ordered the asked-for $2,000 fine for each of the seventy-something counts of violating the state's Consumer Protection Act. That, plus the other fines and prices the Court assessed, came to nearly $400,000 -- not a penny of which has been paid... ...yet. (Stay tuned!) If there were ever a guy who needed to be taken off the street, it's David Lavers. And if there were ever two kids who needed therapy, it's his sons Michael and Andrew. Well... I guess at least Michael isn't really a kid any more. He's a young man of 20 now -- with adult responsibilities to society that I have hope upon hope he will realize and honor. But he's a chip off his ol' man's block. So it remains to be seen what kind of burden on society he ends-up being. Deceit is a way of life for him now. I feel sorry for the kid, actually -- and for his younger brother Andrew as much or more, perhaps. Too bad trashing your kid's value system isn't a felony. David Lavers would be sentenced to life. IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 12:08 PM.
Posted by Mike Feury, 04-17-2002, 03:28 PM
Hi Gregg, I have some experience around due diligence and research groups, and I must say that's an outstanding piece of work. Very well done.
Posted by anna, 04-19-2002, 10:12 AM
It looks like Lavers, Inc. is at it again. They seem to be the folks at openhsp.com. See http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread...hreadid=45660. If you go to openhsp.com, it redirects to 66.122.87.36, which if you do a lookup on, is owned by none other than: MICHAEL LAVERS (NETBLK-SBC066122087032020404) 268 Bush St San Francisco, Ca 94104 US Netname: SBC066122087032020404 Netblock: 66.122.87.32 - 66.122.87.39 Coordinator: Pacific Bell Internet (PIA2-ORG-ARIN) ip-admin@PBI.NET 888-212-5411 Record last updated on 05-Apr-2002. Database last updated on 18-Apr-2002 20:11:05 EDT.
Posted by MilkMan, 04-19-2002, 10:55 AM
Hehe, that's pretty funny...not sure how Dan Rather and an Earthquake from 1989 has to do with it but I guess they were customers of Lavers at that time. $400,000 is a lot of bread, too bad it's unlikely that he/they will pay up. Odds are he/they will open up shop and continue on with another type of scam. Oh I get it, Lavers caused that Earthquake is what you're saying, right?
Posted by DesElms, 04-19-2002, 05:22 PM
Yes, I'm aware of the connection. OpenHSP also shows-up as using Cedura's name servers in the rs.internic.net record -- which, alone, isn't proof, I realize. But, you're right. It is the Lavers... ...again. It certainly looks like Burst.net has their number, though... http://www.openhsp.net http://www.openhsp.org Also, check out the WHOIS records of those two domains. Funny. Finally, just FYI, everyone... I heard another Lavers horror story in a phone conversation today -- a flat-out theft of services that Michael committed against someone in these very forums -- someone we all know, trust and respect. But I need to leave provision of details to him, just in case he has some strategic reason for holding-off on discussing it publicly -- that is, if he ever even decides to discuss it publicly. But take my word for it... it happened. Sadly. Hmm. I wonder if the Lavers finally deserve their own "watch out for these guys" web site. Building one is the last thing on earth I have time for, but at what point does my sense of duty to warn others demand it, perhaps? (Just thinking out loud.) IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 12:09 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-19-2002, 05:27 PM
Exactly.
Posted by akashik, 04-19-2002, 07:54 PM
I'd have to agree with that. After seeing so many one-liners and unsubstantiated complaints in my time here it was unusual to see such a complete and referenced post considering a companies shady dealings. It even made for interesting reading. Tim Greer (our resident lengthy poster) should be nervous. Greg Moore
Posted by Groundhog, 04-20-2002, 12:35 AM
So is this the guy who had ResellerMatrix and MatrixCubed as well? Name sounds really familiar.
Posted by Fahd, 04-20-2002, 01:15 AM
Eternaly grateful to you, deselms for your wonderful post. The entire world needs to be notified of this thread! Thank you and best wishes!
Posted by DesElms, 04-21-2002, 03:47 AM
You did read the rest of this thread... ...right? Yes. David Lavers (father), Michael Lavers (older son), and Andrew Lavers (younger son). Cascadian Systems, HostingMatrix, Lavers and Lavers, MatrixCubed, ResellerMatrix, Cedura Networks, OpenHSP. Synonymity. IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 12:10 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-21-2002, 10:18 PM
Today I have sent the following message to the appropriate email addresses: TO: BBB of San Francisco, Oakland & No Coastal Calif TO: BBB of Northern Nevada TO: BBB of Oregon and Western Washington TO: Pacific Bell Internet TO: SBC/Nevada Bell Internet TO: BulkRegister.com TO: Verisign, Inc. TO: California Attorney General's Office TO: Nevada Attorney General's Office CC: Washington (state) Attorney General's Office RE: Urgent SCAM/FRAUD warning and information This message is regarding the following individuals: - David Lavers (father, age 50) - Michael Lavers (older son, age 20) - Andrew Lavers (younger son, age 17) all doing business, variously, as: - Cascadian Systems (Redmond, WA) - Lavers and Lavers (Redmond, WA) - MatrixCubed (Redmond, WA) - HostingMatrix (Redmond, WA) - ResellerMatrix (Redmond, WA & Reno, NV) - Cedura Networks (Redmond, WA & Reno, NV) - OpenHSP (San Francisco and Reno, NV) My reason for writing to you today is: 1. To Make the parties to which this message is addressed aware of recent information regarding the Lavers and their fraudulent operations, and, 2. To suggest to the Oregon & Western Washington BBB that it update its records accordingly and make same available on its web site, and, 3. To suggest to the BBB of San Francisco, Oakland & Northern Coastal California that it might be time to place a warning on its web site because of the address in San Francisco that Michael Lavers is using for fraudulent business purposes, and, 4. To suggest to the BBB of Northern Nevada that it might be time to open a file on the Lavers and their Cedura Networks and OpenHSP operations; and then to post same on its web site, because of the two Reno addresses that Michael is using for fraudulent business purposes, and, 5. To suggest to Pacific Bell Internet and SBC/Nevada Bell Internet that it seize the IP addresses and the DSL circuits used by the Lavers, on the grounds that said addresses and circuits have been used for fraudulent purposes, and, 6. To suggest to BulkRegister.com that it seize the domain names used by the Lavers and registered thru BulkRegister because said domains have been used for fraudulent purposes, and, 7. To suggest to Verisign (formerly Network Solutions) that it seize the domain names used by the Lavers and registered through Verisign, because said domains have been used for fraudulent purposes, and, 8 To suggest to the California Attorney General's Office that it begin its own investigation of the Lavers and the San Francisco address they are using for business purposes, and that it cooperate with the Washington State Attorney General's Office and its continuing follow-up investigation, and, 9. To suggest to the Nevada Attorney General's Office that it begin its own investigation of the Lavers and the Reno addresses they are using for business purposes, and that it cooperate with the Washington State Attorney General's Office and its continuing follow-up investigation. The BBB of Oregon and Western Washington web site has a partial record of the Lavers and their activities at: http://www.thebbb.org/report.html?co...133&national=Y The Washington State Attorney General's Office High-tech Unit filed a complaint against the Lavers and has since won a judgement, with fines and prices in amounts approaching $400,000 still being owed by the trio. To contact the investigator for the Washington AG's office, send an email to redacted or call redacted. Or see the AG's web page regarding the matter at: http://www.wa.gov/ago/releases/rel_hitech_101800.html BACKGROUND SUMMARY The Lavers are particularly notorious in the web hosting industry. One of the industry's leading online web public forums (webhostingtalk.com) has numerous postings about them from people who have been ripped-off or hurt in other ways by the Lavers. And other forums and bulletin boards on the web are beginning to get Lavers-related postings telling of horror stories consumers have had with these three nefarious individuals. In certain, I refer you to the following discussion thread, entitled "Hosting Nightmare" in the "Reseller" forums at webhostingtalk.com In that thread, after my reading numerous posts from people who have been recently hurt by the Lavers, I finally made a rather large posting providing the information I have on the Lavers. I did so as a warning to others. I refer you to this thread not only so you may see an example of the kinds of complaints the Lavers and their enterprises tend to generate, but also so that you may read my aforementioned posting where you may get a history of the Lavers, thereby saving me from having to write it all here, in this email message. Please see the "Hosting Nightmare" thread at: URL of this thread The Lavers' most recent exploits are CEDURA NETWORKS (cedura.net) and OPENHSP.COM both of which web hosting entities have generated complaints of deceit and fraud in the WebHostingTalk forums and elsewhere. Though the Lavers have, in the past, been a Redmond, WA-area operation located at: HostingMatrix Matrixcubed ResellerMatrix 704 228th Avenue NE #265 Redmond WA 98053 they are now using private mailbox addresses in Reno, NV and San Francisco, CA as their official company addresses, to wit: Cedura Networks 8175 South Virginia St. Suite 850, PMB 410 Reno NV 89511 OpenHSP 7000 Mae Anne Ave, #2124 Reno NV 89523 - and - Michael Lavers/OpenHSP 268 Bush St San Francisco CA 94104 The Lavers use the following domain names registered through the indicated registrars: matrixcubed.com (registered via bulkregister.com) matrixcubed.net (registered via bulkregister.com) hostingmatrix.com (registered via verisign.com) hostingmatrix.net (registered via verisign.com) resellermatrix.com (registered via bulkregister.com) resellermatrix.net (registered via bulkregister.com) cedura.com (registered via bulkregister.com) cedura.net (registered via bulkregister.com) cedura.org (registered via bulkregister.com) openhsp.com (registered via bulkregister.com) And Michael Lavers has registered the following IP addresses and DSL circuits through SBC/Nevada Bell Internet (nvbell.net) and Pacific Bell Internet (pbi.net): ARIN netname: SBC066122087032020404 IP range: 66.122.87.32 - 66.122.87.39 adsl-66-122-87-32.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net THRU adsl-66-122-87-39.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net for use with OpenHSP.com web site. The Lavers are very harmful to others who make the mistake of doing business with them. And it's not just end-users (web hosting customers) who are harmed. The Lavers also harm companies from whom they purchase services. For example, recently a large hosting company (burst.net) had a reseller who was scammed by the Lavers. And one of the Internet's most well-known and respected redacted companies (redacted.com) was flat-out stolen-from by them. After the above-referenced Washington State Attorney General's successful suit, the Lavers seemed to slow down their operations a bit. But their recent Cedura Networks and OpenHSP operations clearly demonstrate that the Lavers are now stepping-up their activites and are, once again, hurting people in droves! Michael Lavers recently claimed that his ResellerMatrix operation was "acquired" by Cedura Networks. However, the owner of Cedura Networks turned out to be Michael Lavers, making his "acquisition" claim an obvious ruse. Within the last 30 days, after the Lavers read about themselves and their Cedura Networks scam at places like webhostingtalk.com, they shut down that web site and opened an operation called "OpenHSP" (openhsp.com). A week or two ago, OpenHSP was hosted on a server owned by burst.net (via one of it's resellers). BurstNet forced the OpenHSP site off its servers after numerous spam and fraud complaints. So, last week, Michael Lavers leased a block of IP addresses and DSL circuits from Pacific Bell Internet (pbi.net) via SBC/Nevada Bell Internet (nvbell.net) and he then hosted his OpenHSP site on a server connected to the Internet via said DSL circuits. Now, this week, having once again begun to read about themselves and their fraudulent operations in places like webhostingtalk.com, the Lavers took down the OpenHSP site as well (though it still controls the IP addresses and DSL circuits as of this writing). The Lavers, I'm quite particular, are plotting their next move even as you are reading this. OFFICIAL REQUEST FOR ACTION Please treat the Lavers as the purveyors of fraud that they truly are. Please treat this matter with the urgency it deserves. I humbly and fervently request: 1. That the BBB update its records accordingly and display appropriate warnings on their web sites, and, 2. That the IP addresses and DSL circuits provided to the Lavers by PacBell Internet and SBC/Nevada Bell Internet be seized by those providers and/or terminated, as appropriate, and, 3. That the domain names utilized by the Lavers to commit fraud be seized by the two registrars thru which they were registered (Bulkregister and Verisign), and, 4. That the Attorney Generals' Offices of both the states of California and Nevada cooperate with the investigator from the Washington Attorney General's office, and perhaps that California and Nevada launch investigations and prosecutions of its own. If you have any questions or need further details or supporting documentation, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you, in advance, for your thoughtful consideration. Redactions performed at the request of those who did not wish their personal data disclosed here. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 12:36 PM.
Posted by jamenjaw, 04-21-2002, 11:27 PM
thank you, thank you for letting me know about them i did run across there site a while back (i think it was the matraxhosting site) as i run a web hosting search site I will be keeping an eye out for them my self and will remove there submitions to my site in due haste. please keep us up to date on this i hope this will show all the people who try to run a web hosting scam out there that WE will not put up with it any more! laters James
Posted by NexDog, 04-22-2002, 10:27 AM
Greg, Thanks so much for putting in the effort and working tirelessly for everyone's benefit. This stuff is sheer gold. Don't ever stop..........
Posted by Mike Feury, 04-22-2002, 03:03 PM
Ditto and Amen!
Posted by Vortech, 04-22-2002, 05:05 PM
Just so know one get this crossed http://www.matrixreseller.com has nothing to do with these scammers.. The name is kind of close so don't want this to get in to any ones head..
Posted by DesElms, 04-23-2002, 01:40 AM
Yes... absolutely! You're right. I forgot about that. I remember reading two or three threads about matrixreseller.com here in WebHostingTalk... http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread...ixreseller.com http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread...ixreseller.com http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread...ixreseller.com and I made a mental note to myself to clarify it in my first post. Obviously I spaced it. Sorry. MatrixReseller (or at least the domain name) is owned by VortechHosting in Orlando, FL. As far as I know, there is no connection whatsoever with the Lavers. That having been said, knowing what I know about brand recognition and awareness, and how the human brain remembers things in weird and fragmented ways over time, I, personally, would shelve the domain matrixreseller.com given the history and bad name that resellermatrix.com has. There will definitely be confusion. We've seen it here, and I assure you that people outside of the hosting world will be even less discerning. And even search engines will cause confusion. For example, the search algorithm used by these forums returns not only the three threads shown above (all of which are about MatrixReseller) but also this thread (which is about ResellerMatrix) when one searches on the character string "matrixreseller". I realize that, at this point, that's because the post to which I'm responding here caused the character string "matrixreseller" to get into this thread. But I think we all know of search engines that would have confused the two regardless. My advice to VortechHosting (not that anyone asked for it, mind you): You may want to reconsider the name "matrixreseller" before you get too committed to it. Just my .02 worth. Last edited by DesElms; 04-23-2002 at 11:33 AM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-23-2002, 02:03 AM
Whew... boy... ...now that I think more about it, it really bothers me that this anti-resellermatrix.com thread is returned whenever anyone searches these forums regarding matrixreseller.com That's just not fair to VortechHosting. Many people will look at the first few postings in this thread and stop reading before ever getting to these posts which make it clear that the two should not be confused. They will presume matrixreseller and resellermatrix are the same and they'll just move on... thereby unfairly depriving matrixreseller of business it might otherwise have secured. Hmmm. How 'bout this... Hey, vsomored (the guy who started this thread)... When you read this, could you please go back and edit your very first original posting that started this thread in the first place? Please add a simple sentence at the very end of it... perhaps something like: IMPORTANT NOTE: The domain names resellermatrix.com and matrixreseller.com should not be confused. It is the former, and not the latter, which is the subject of this thread. That would probably take care of it. <> But my recommendation to VortechHosting remains the same: Given the bad karma surrounding resellermatrix.com and the ease with which I guarantee you people will become confused, I'd dump the use of matrixreseller.com like a hot potato. Just a suggestion. {edit} I had an afterthought: If VortechHosting does stop using "matrixreseller.com" then maybe it can hold on to it and it can be pointed later toward any Lavers warning web site that might happen to come out of all this. I'm seriously considering building one (though I'm loathe to, frankly). Keep it in mind as a possibility, eh? Last edited by Chicken; 04-25-2002 at 07:02 PM.
Posted by WCSWEB, 04-23-2002, 10:07 AM
Wow DesElms tears are coming out of my eyes you blew me away with such good posts. I wish all of the posts where like this at WHT but wait then there wouldn't be a discussion furum lol I really apreciate it that you decided to share such valuable information so that our hosting comunity becomes aware of this scammers.
Posted by Vortech, 04-23-2002, 11:20 AM
Thanks.. It would be nice if they could add that there.. I sure don't want in the middle of this...
Posted by DesElms, 04-26-2002, 09:34 PM
Looks like OpenHSP.com is alive and well again... after being down for a little while right after the complaint I sent to the BBB, various attorney generals' offices, the Lavers' domain name registrars, and the Lavers' ISP. (If you would like to see my complaint, and if you are viewing this thread in the default 15 posts-per-page format, a copy of my complaint is in the 11th post down on the 3rd page of this thread. And my history of the Lavers begins with the 9th post down on the 2nd page of this thread... in case you're interested.) I don't know if it was because of the aforementioned complaint I sent on 4/21/2002, or if my complaint was just icing on the cake of many other complaints that Bulkregister and SBC PacBell Internet/Nevada Bell Internet received, but here's what's different about OpenHSP's current existence: ITEM 1: Bulkregister.com must have gotten tired of the messages to its Abuse Dept because the first thing I notice is that after years of registering all of their domains through Bulkregister, the Lavers have now become a GoDaddy customer -- at least for the openhsp.com domain name. The domain openhsp.com was moved from Bulkregister to GoDaddy on 4/23/2002, to wit: Registrant: OpenHSP.com OpenHSP.com OpenHSP.com 7000 Mae Anne Avenue #2124 Reno, Nevada 89523 United States Registrar: Go Daddy Software (http://registrar.godaddy.com) Domain Name: OPENHSP.COM Created on: 23-Apr-02 Expires on: Last Updated on: 24-Apr-02 Domain servers in listed order: NS1.OPENHSP.COM NS2.OPENHSP.COM The Lavers' other domain names remain at Bulkregister. ITEM 2: OpenHSP was using a range of SBC PacBell Internet IP addresses that had been registered to Mike Lavers through SBC Internet's Nevada Bell Internet (66.122.87.32 - 66.122.87.39). And, if one interrogates the ARIN database for PacBell's (pbi.net's) PBI-NET-9 block, one can see that those IP addresses continue to be registered to Mike Lavers. And they continue to resolve in DNS as active, working nvbell.net DSL circuits out of the Reno, NV NOC. At this writing, OpenHSP's second name server (ns2.openhsp.com) continues to use an IP address (66.122.87.37) in the range registered to Mike Lavers and described in the preceding paragraph. OpenHSP's first name server (ns1.openhsp.com) will not, at this writing, resolve in DNS. Right after my aforementioned complaint, OpenHSP disappeared again -- just as the Lavers' Cedura Networks had disappeared after people here and in other forums blew the whistle on them. Then, starting a couple days ago, the Lavers moved OpenHSP over to a different IP range that is still in the PBI-NET-9 block, only this time the range is, curiously, registered to: ROUND TABL PZZA NV LLC (NETBLK-SBC066122087056020409) 268 Bush St San Francisco, Ca 94104 US Netname: SBC066122087056020409 Netblock: 66.122.87.56 - 66.122.87.63 Coordinator: Pacific Bell Internet (PIA2-ORG-ARIN) ip-admin@PBI.NET 888-212-5411 And all of those IPs resolve in DNS to SBC/Nevada Bell Internet DSL circuits out of the Reno, NV NOC. The last one in the range (66.122.87.63) is the IP address of the OpenHSP web site itself. Hmm. Next time you're-a-hankerin' for a pizza and thinkin' 'bout goin' over to your nearby Round Table Pizza parlor to get one, perhaps you should think twice about supporting any entity that would ever help the Lavers in any way. Just a thought... harkening back to my old, sign-carrying, protest/boycott roots. Or perhaps this reassignment is the act of someone at SBC PacBell/Nevada Bell -- maybe because the heat was on or something like that. It's kinda' odd. I'm not sure, really, what this means. And I don't have time to research it. Maybe the ol' man (David Lavers) bought a Round Table Pizza franchise in Reno. Perhaps someone reading this might be willing to take it upon themselves to do that part of the research and see if they can make some sense of it and post the results back here, in this forum. But what it comes down to, in the end, is that OpenHSP is hosting its own site and the sites of its reseller customers on a server or servers of its own, using as its bandwidth the aggregate performance of seven (7) DSL (presumably SDSL) circuits. (Or at least I hope they're SDSL -- for their poor customers' sake!) If OpenHSP is also still using the 8 IP addresses in the aforementioned range registered to Mike Lavers, then they're using 15 DSL circuits. [sigh] Either way, it's not very professional, is it? Or, most importantly, reliable. But I don't know why I'm letting that surprise me. ITEM 3: Cedura Networks' home page, at this writing, remains the Apache web server default page -- just as ResellerMatrix's home page does. These Apache web server default pages appear at first to be physically located on servers at HostSeguro in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil because they are in an IP range assigned to HostSeguro. This, perhaps, as a diversion to make people think that the Lavers' have physically located their operations off-shore. Regardless, despite the seeming diversion, those IP addresses actually end-up at HostNOC (BurstNET) in Bloomsburg, PA, USA. (Or maybe it's simply because HostNOC/BurstNET had no other IPs to give them and HostSeguro's were handy... it might be as innocent as that. Who knows.) Both Cedura Networks and ResellerMatrix have "support" (and other) subdomains that resolve to IP addresses in a range assigned to ResellerMatrix at HostNOC (BurstNET) in Bloomsburg, PA, USA. One may see what the old ResellerMatrix.net web site looked like by going to one of the Lavers' old domain names: matrixcubed.com and matrixcubed.net. Why the resellermatrix.net web site is on the matrixcubed.xxx domain is unclear. It's only a guess, but it's probably set up that way so that the Lavers can make resellermatrix.net work at any moment by simply pointing a CNAME alias at one of the matrixcubed domains. But who really knows what's in Mike Lavers' brain. MatrixCubed's IPs, incidentally, are also part of ResellerMatrix's assigned range at HostNOC/BurstNET. The old HostingMatrix domains continue to be owned by the Lavers, but, at this writing, do not resolve. The IPs of their name servers are still showing as being at Alabanza -- where the Lavers are no longer (wanted as) customers. Confused? If the answer to that question is "yes," then perhaps congratulations to the Lavers are in order. Confusing us is clearly their intent. I can't think of a single reputable hosting company that has left such an intentionally convoluted trail. And that's because the Lavers want it that way. The more we know and post in public places about them, the faster and deeper they must run for cover -- like cockroaches on the kitchen counter when you first switch on the light. Obfuscation is the coin of the Lavers' realm. Wanna help? I can't be the only person carrying-on this campaign to keep hounding the Lavers until it's just no longer worth it for them to be in the hosting business. I need your help to keep-up the pressure. Everyone needs to take a moment and send a message to: support@pacbell.net abuse@pacbell.net support@nvbell.net abuse@nvbell.net and remind them that OpenHSP is a spammer and has been kicked-off BurstNET's servers, and has apparently been booted from BulkRegister, for it (see: openhsp.net or openhsp.org -- two domains either registered by or seized by VeoWeb/BurstNET so it could put up a page warning others about the Lavers). Also remind SBC PacBell/Nevada Bell that they have already been advised that the people who run OpenHSP are known to commit fraudulent and misleading deeds, as described in this forum; that they are engaging in misleading behavior even at this moment by using an IP range registered to Round Table Pizza rather than to Mike Lavers, whose IP range registered in his name is right there in that same PBI-NET-9 block. And ask SBC PacBell/Nevada Bell to please terminate OpenHSP's service. Same for GoDaddy. Send an email straight to its president, Bob Parsons -- or, better yet, call him. Bob is a deeply spiritual guy and decent man. I'm sure he has no idea that such nefarious characters as the Lavers are now his customers -- or that his competitor, Bulkregister, dumped them for it. So point him to this thread and ask him to read it thoroughly. I'm fairly particular (though I could be wrong) that, if Bob read this thread, he'd ask the Lavers to go elsewhere as well. In the meantime, I gotta' go now. I can't spend any more time on this at the moment. Policing ourselves, here on the web, is partly how we keep legislators from making stupid laws that restrict our Internet freedom. The Lavers are bad actors who need to be gone from this industry. This is our chance, right here, right now, to make a difference. To keep-up the pressure. To prevent another innocent victim from falling prey to the Lavers. Please do what you can. Every little bit helps. Last edited by DesElms; 04-27-2002 at 01:42 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-26-2002, 10:50 PM
In my previous post, I forgot to make this point: Anyone who thinks this forum is not making a difference needs to think again. We know the Lavers read it. After all, who do you think cannon71 is? And we know that they know we're on to them. And when I say "we," I mean every single pair of eyes used in the more than 3,500 views of this thread to date. And, of course, "we" also includes the thoughtful and caring souls who have posted here (excluding cannon71, of course). The Lavers need to move on to another industry. This one won't tolerate them. And, frankly, if I were to happen to stumble on to any other business type in which they engaged, I'd probably hound them there, too. A tiger doesn't change its stripes. And the Lavers have made an enemy of me for life. We know they're hurting. After all, witness how they must now skulk around in order to do any kind of business anywhere; and how they've had to set-up shop in the huckster capital of America: Reno, NV. We know they still owe the State of Washington nearly $400,000 in fines and court prices -- a debt which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy and which, now that the Lavers have put themselves back on the Washington Attorney General's radar, they are probably going to have to start paying pretty darned soon. And we know we've put so much pressure on them that we've forced them to slash their profitabity to nearly nothing in order to attract any business at all. Look how much we're forcing them to offer for a lousy five bucks a month: 400 MB of disk space and 10GB/mo of bandwidth. There's no significant profit in that... trust me. But the Lavers know there will always be people who are motivated by price alone and won't perform due diligence to research who they give their money to. And at that price, the Lavers are obviously hoping to make-up for lost margin with volume -- a recipe for disaster over time, as countless now-closed American businesses have demonstrated to us over and over again. And theirs is a business plan, incidentally, which cannot be supported by 7 (or even 15, if that's the actual number) DSL circuits. That's really important. If OpenHSP can build-up a huge customer base, their very construct will quickly collapse in on itself using nothing but DSL circuits as bandwidth. Or so it is my considered opinion. If you think about it, we've really helped to back the Lavers into something of a corner -- us... you and me... right here on this lil' ol' WebHostingTalk thread! That's something of which both we, and the people who provide and maintain WebHostingTalk, may be truly proud. Others have thanked me in this thread. And I appreciate their recognition. But I want to thank WebHostingTalk itself for simply being here -- and for being so popular that very soon there will be 4,000 views of this thread (or at least so is the number as of this writing)... representing hundreds and hundreds of people who now have the Lavers' number... ...which is the whole point, isn't it? And people who read about the Lavers here are posting messages about them elsewhere... trust me. Word gets a around -- and fast. I also want to thank Chicken for his excellent job of moderating this terribly important thread -- and whichever other of the WHT moderators may have worked here, as well. Bravo! The Lavers continue to misrepresent, to deceive, to mislead. As if they learned nothing from the experience, they continue to do the very things that landed them in the crosshairs of the Washington State Attorney General's office's "High-tech Unit" in the first place when, in October 2000, it charged them with violating the state's Consumer Protection laws -- over 70 counts worth, in fact... totaling over $140,000 in fines ($2,000 per count) by the time the judge got through ordering the Lavers' punishment. Add other fines, fees and prices and you come to the aforementioned figure of nearly $400,000 that the Lavers still owe the state. And if you don't believe they're still at it, just take a look at OpenHSP's "Facilities" page. Believe me... there's almost nothing on that page that's true. Nothing. And that's precisely the kind of crap the Lavers pulled when they were calling themselves ResellerMatrix. And MatrixCubed before that. And HostingMatrix before that. Just read the rest of this thread (if you haven't already) and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Since their brush with the law in Washington, they've gone out and flown in the face of the judge's order which severely restricted their activities in this industry and they've formed Cedura Networks and now OpenHSP -- and who knows how many other hosting companies we haven't even discovered yet! The list of their other transgressions just goes on and on and on and on -- far too long to list here, but recountings of which you can find easily by simply searching this and other forums. Still, we can make a difference. We have made a difference. As it should be. And, with your help, as it shall be. Fight the good fight. Get these bad guys out of our industry, once and for all. Last edited by DesElms; 04-26-2002 at 10:57 PM.
Posted by Coran, 04-27-2002, 01:04 PM
Gregg, thank you very much for your incredibly informatative posts. I will be contacting PacBell and NVBell. I have read through this entire thread and do not believe this has been mentioned, if it has sorry, but one of my customers sent me a heads-up email yesterday. Apparently the Lavers are spamming the Alabanza customer base: To: webmaster@xxxxxxxxxx.org Subject: Your account (xxxxx.org) has been setup! From: trial@openhsp.com Reply-To: trial@openhsp.com Hey, are you aware that your current web-host is a reseller for Alabanza? The average cost per server that Alabanza offers is $4,000 a month! That's over $5 per client! That's what your hosting provider pays just to offer the service to you. We don't think hosting should have to be so expensive, we'd like to offer you an opportunity to test-drive an alternative to Alabanza, an upgrade to your current web-hosting services for free. Your account (amearts.org) has already been setup, just click the link below to set your account information and take it for a spin: http://openhsp.com/trial.hsp?domain=...promo=alabanza Instead of paying an inflated monthly fee of $14.95, $19.95 or more (!) we can provide you will full-featured hosting with even more web space and bandwidth than even their top plan for only $4.95 a month. No catch. No setup fees. Plus your first month is absolutely free, just to help you get settled. What does this all include? Everything Alabanza offers and more! Let us run down their features and ours: ALABANZA US (OpenHSP.com) Monthly Fee: $14.95 $4.95 Setup Fee: Yes ($20!) No E-mail Accounts: 50 Unlimited Web Space: 50MB 400MB Bandwidth: 5GB (5000MB) 10GB (10000MB) Dedicated IP: No Yes SMTP Support: No Yes Counters: No Yes Shopping Cart: No Yes (2 to choose from) MySQL Database: No Yes SSH/Telnet: No Yes PhpMyAdmin: No Yes 24/7 Support: Within 24 hours Within 12 hours! Auto-responders: Yes Yes CGI-BIN: Yes Yes E-mail Forwarding: Yes Yes File Manager: Yes Yes Formmail: Yes Yes FrontPage: Yes Yes FTP Access: Yes Yes Mail Manager: Yes Yes Mailing List: Yes Yes Multiple FTP Accounts: Yes Yes Connectivity: OC12 (1) OC192 (2), 2GBPS (1), DS-3 (1) OC3 (2), DS3 (3), etc. Password Protection: Yes Yes Perl Support: Yes Yes PHP Support: Yes Yes Raw Log Files: Yes Yes Server Side Includes: Yes Yes SSL Certification: Yes (shared) Yes (full) Site Statistics: Yes Yes WebMail: Yes Yes (2 to choose from) Web Site Manager: Yes Yes And that's just the features that Alabanza offers! We also have the following features included: sub-domains, static IP address, web-based control panel, optional reseller panel, MX record manager, anonymous FTP server, site backups, custom error pages, cron job manager, CGI chat room, message boards, OpenPGP support, PHP chat room, search engine submitter, and much more! GUARANTEED SUPPORT We guarantee that our support is the best in web-hosting. So much so, we guarantee that you will receive a human response to your request within 12-hours of submittion. We average a human response within 1-hour and resolution within 6 hours. Compare that with Alabanza's 24-hour response and you can clearly see we are the best. FIRST MONTH FREE? REALLY? Yes! We want to make your move as painless as possible. Plus, if you decide to stay with us after your first month, you'll even get a 50% discount of your 2nd month! So what are you waiting for? For as much as 1/3 (30% the price you pay with Alabanza) you can get more features, better support, more reliable service---for less. Login to your new account now at: http://openhsp.com/trial.hsp?domain=...promo=alabanza We look forward to hosting your web site! There is no obligation or prices associated with using this account for the first 30 days. Upload as many files as you like, use as many features as you like -- it's all free. BUT I'M A RESELLER. WHAT ABOUT ME? No problem! Once you've setup your account and have taken it for a test drive, contact reseller@openhsp.com to get access to your very own reseller panel. Reseller plans start at a 5% discount for 5 accounts all the way up to a 50% discount. CAN I GET A DEDICATED SERVER? Yes! E-mail dedicated@openhsp.com for details. Take advantage of our free trial, you have nothing to lose! We're confident you'll see that we're the best. Have a great day, OpenHSP.com Team www.openhsp.com Last edited by Coran; 05-02-2002 at 01:19 AM.
Posted by DesElms, 04-27-2002, 01:25 PM
Thanks! Yes, I got a copy of one of their spams from back on the 18th or thereabouts. I thought about including more details about it in my earlier post, but there wasn't enough room. It's good you posted a copy so people can see what the Lavers are offering and why it might seem attractive to some. In fact, I would venture a guess that there will be a small number of persons visiting this thread who will read the copy of the Lavers' spam and will think to themselves, "Hey, wait a minute... that's a pretty good deal," and then they'll go sign-up. If they can do that after reading this thread then maybe they get what they deserve. Unfortunately, later, we'll see them posting in this thread or starting a new one wherein they complain about getting no support or their site being shut down for no apparent reason or their credit card being charged for things they didn't authorize or... well... too many possibilities to list here. Some people just can't be warned, I guess. Thanks for the info.
Posted by DesElms, 04-27-2002, 01:48 PM
Thanks, Chicken! I see you gave vsomored three days and he didn't do it. He must have moved on to other threads. I've exchanged email with the guy and he seems pretty nice. I'm sure if he knew he'd been asked to make the change, he would have. Glad you were on it. Appreciate it! I'm sure Vortech does, too.
Posted by Chicken, 04-27-2002, 03:24 PM
After a certian period of time he can't change it (we have to) and I think he may have reported it (so many reports lately, hard to keep track of things...).
Posted by Coran, 04-29-2002, 12:00 AM
Glad to help. I agree that there wasn't room for a copy of the spam email in your earlier posts, but I thought it was the "icing on the cake" on the way these ba****** work their scams. I also find it doubtful that they will get many legit signups this way as their site is down most of the time. One has to question a current customer's common sense if they decide to defect to a hosting company that, in effect, does not have a site. The only tantalizing selling point they offer is $4.95 per month hosting, and we all know what that really is.......
Posted by DesElms, 04-29-2002, 01:49 AM
Too bad there isn't an easy way to make all the spammers and child porn site operators of the world aware of such a good hosting deal as OpenHSP is offering. Oh, don't get me wrong... it's not that I want those kinds of sites to flourish. But I know that those kinds of hosting customers are usually hit-and-run, use a lot of resources while they're around, and often do credit card chargebacks after they've left -- any or all of which would be excellent medicine for the Lavers. It's nice when a scammer gets scammed, don't you think?
Posted by cannon71, 05-01-2002, 09:11 AM
Gregg DesElms was a former customer of ours (circa. 1999). I dont recall how long he was a customer, this was a few years ago and Gregg was barely a blip on the radar. At the time we were operating Matrixcubed, we were small and admittedly understaffed but we had a customer-base that was growing in leaps and bounds. It was very much a family-owned business at the time; we had our network setup in the basement of my home and a call center there as well. We only had 3 full-time employees and a handful of part-time employees. We were under a lot of pressure with such a large client-base that we had to work 18-20 hours a day just to get through the support load. And unfortunately, running a web-host was very costly at the time and we barely struck even and didnt have the cash to bring on additional help. How Ive have developed this undeserved reputation of being a shyster, so to speak, is beyond me and astounds me as to how many people claim to know all about me and what Ive done. When the case is generally that these people do not know me (I have never met Gregg DesElms) and are either misinformed, fabricating, or mistaking me for someone else. In all cases, its a broad stroke of the pen (or keyboard) which ends up hurting innocent people by spreading misinformation about them and unfortunately this is what Gregg DesElms has been doing for a few years now. He may think he is the knight on the white horse fighting for the greater good of consumers and I WISH he was. He may think everything that he says or writes is the truth but it isnt, he spends more time writing this long-winded drivel than double-checking his facts (or lack thereof). I dont mind so much that he attacks me personally, but when he attacks my family, especially my brother, who had only been a part of the company very briefly (around the time when DesElms did business with us) then hes playing with fire and should be ashamed of himself. DesElms has since started a competing web-hosting company, GreggDesElms.com (if that doesnt speak volumes about his ego, I dont know what does), so anything he says is tainted with a conflict of interest. Hes even going after Round Table Pizza! Perhaps his research is flawed? Perhaps we didnt pamper him enough back when he was a customer of ours so now hes teaching us a lesson. Lord knows from what I know about this creep, that type of self-absorbed reasoning wouldnt exactly be alien to the likes of him. No host is perfect, most if not all have their fair share of unhappy, disgruntled customers. Some of these customers are just plain inconsolable, like a bomb waiting to explode. We do our best, within our means to make sure each and every customer is satisfied and receives the service they deserve, but theyre human, and sometimes the world just isnt good enough. Thats just a reality in a service-based industry. DesElms refers to me as infamous, perhaps this is the source of his hatred? Perhaps hes under the misconception that I am some type of celebrity. He obviously has too much time on his hands and refuses to just let go. I really wish he would just move on, find another, more deserving target. But perhaps he, too, is inconsolable and will not quit until hes destroyed me (one way or another). I wouldnt mind meeting him in person; I think hed realize there was more to me than a name. And that theres a human-being out there hes hurting whether he knows or even cares. He refers to me as arrogant, yet I have never met, spoken, or even exchanged an e-mail with him. He calls me a con man or scammer yet he conveniently leaves out the important detailssuch as those Ive supposedly scammed or conned of which there are none. I will not and have not. That's not the type of person I am, anyone who knows me will say the same. The only reason we were targeted by the Attorney General of Washington was because Christine Gregoire (attorney general) needed a target for her new High Tech Crackdown Squad, conveniently formed during her re-election campaign. We were a small internet company a perfect target for such political propaganda. She claimed we were a pyramid scheme, which by her reasoning, every company that offered a reseller program would be a pyramid scheme. To make a long story short; we didnt have the funds, patience, or means to defend ourselves against the government (which has unlimited funds, patience and means), and Christine Gregoires political propaganda was victorious by default. She was eventually, at our expense, re-elected. Of course, DesElms overlooked all of this or, more plausibly, didnt even bother to dig further than what was handed to him on a silver platter. DesElms refers to Reno as where hustlers and lowlifes like the Lavers flourish, is that really what Reno is all about? Have you ever even been to Reno, Gregg? Not winning at the craps tables so suddenly Reno is full of hustlers and lowlifes? See any parallels? DesElms is under the impression that Selis and Gustafson are putting their money where their mouth istheir money, Gregg? Or the unsuspecting tax-payers of Washington State? How many more holes can I punch into your research? As for MBills comments, when the company that supplies your billing software approaches your outline of bugs/errors in their software as accusations, you know youre not going to get anywhere with them. But you dont see me posting in public forums about this, now do you? Perhaps I have more ethics than even DesElms is willing to admit. Weve never outright attacked DesElms in any way. Like he claims...Im sure he wishes we would, that way hed have an excuse for wasting his life. In the same breath, he goes from calling me infamous to characterising me as smallness make up your mind Gregg! And while youre at it, get a life. Better yet, turn that competing company of yours into a real competitor, put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is. And if you want to meet me in person sometime, let me know and I will PM you to make arrangements. Id love to meet the man behind the keyboard who hates my guts so feverously. As for Cedura Networks, a group of Nevadan/Incline investors who acquired the remnants of ResellerMatrix, as well as couple other hosting companies, which will go nameless (dont want to just hand it all over to DesElms, make him work for his treat). Im happy to say that were growing faster than ever with the financial backing we didnt have before. We have thousands of satisfied customers and more are joining everyday. And if I spot DesElms signing up for a service of ours, for whatever reason, he'll be provided with the same quality service that we offer all of our customers. Perhaps we can change his mind... but I'm not holding my breath. Regards, Mike Lavers Cedura Networks, CEO
Posted by Annette, 05-01-2002, 12:57 PM
Let's do this: let's put aside all the stuff you just posted. Perhaps you can just explain to us all why exactly you specifically spammed Alabanza (or in our case) former Alabanza-based hosts or their resellers. Thanks.
Posted by Mike Feury, 05-01-2002, 07:15 PM
Hi Mike, Good to see you post here, but in my opinion you have displayed neither holes or punch yet. The only specific you tackle is the WA state judgement, with a weak but maybe plausible scenario. I think you need to tackle more of the specifics, which I imagine others like the previous poster will isolate. There are always 2 sides to every story, but so far your side is very much weaker in my opinion. It's a pity that it's you posting here Mike - it's your father who's been identified as the prime instigator in all the history which has been presented to us so far. You yourself may indeed be innocent in this - but I believe your father should be defending the Laver's side here if anyone.
Posted by thereismore, 05-02-2002, 01:24 AM
Mike Lavers, how about answering Annette's question? Why did you spam Alabanza based hosts?
Posted by cannon71, 05-02-2002, 05:42 AM
Mike, Well, I find it unfortunate that Gregg DesElms' long-winded finger-pointing and name calling could be accepted as legitimate enough to condemn me. Notice how he never, ever mentions any specific people or cases that I or ResellerMatrix have "scammed" people. The reason for this is because he doesn't have any specific people or cases -- there aren't any. He just recycles the same "they're evil, they're scammers because I say so". I'd rebut his points but frankly, he doesnt bring any substance to the table. And he doesn't need to in his mind, he hates us so blindly that all he needs to do is scream bloody murder and people accept it as the gospel. As for your comment about my father, you're misinformed. I am the Chief Executive Officer, I have been in charge since the the beginning. I will defend myself, I will defend my company. As for whoever asked why we spammed -- we didn't. It as a reseller of ours that in fact spammed (OpenHSP is a reseller of Cedura). We have policies against spamming and the reseller violated both our policies as well as our co-location provider BurstNET's policies. The only reason why the whois contacts show our information is because we registered the domain name for the reseller, we register the domain then once we receive payment for it we transfer it into their name. They've since tranferred the domain to GoDaddy and I believe, if they haven't already, will update the contacts so that we aren't blamed for any future incidents. Mike Lavers Cedura Networks, CEO
Posted by cannon71, 05-02-2002, 06:06 AM
Additionally, for those who actually care about this, I recommend reading through the AG court documents. I think you'll notice a severe lack of evidence, they claimed to have 20 complaints (in their frequent, public releases -- we had local news stations beating down our doors) about us between 1997-1999, yet they only bother to include 7-8 in their case, and a few of these were never actually customers of ours and the only explainable reason why they were even included is because they lived in Washington. No transaction receipts, credit card statements, or any other proof to the claims that they make. Just e-mails from the customer to us, they leave out our responses in almost all of the cases, or they edit/omit our responses to better support their case. It was very disenchanting to say the least. Having the Washington State government juggernaut roll over you just for the purpose of re-electing the Democratic Attorney General (Christine Gregoire). There are more effective, less costly ways of doing this... but I suppose in the heat of the Internet boom this seemed to be the most viable option to them. Mike Lavers Cedura Networks, CEO Last edited by cannon71; 05-02-2002 at 06:11 AM.
Posted by Annette, 05-02-2002, 08:13 AM
I'm not buying that at all. I doubt anyone else here will buy it either. Are you seriously telling us that you run some "affiliate" script locally from a DSL line in NV, far removed from the servers themselves? Was this before or after Burst shut down the site? Think carefully before answering. OpenHSP=NV. Cedura=NV. If Chicken checks your posting IP, will that be in Nevada, too? There are very few things in life that get me really irritated. This is one of them.
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 11:45 AM
I'd jump in, here, but Mike seems to be doing such a good job of making himself look foolish; and Annette and others certainly seem to be asking the right questions... ...so for the moment just waiting to see what happens here seems like a fun and prudent thing to do. I'll respond appropriately to Mr. Lavers ridiculous statements soon. So, Mr. Lavers... regarding Annette's question... ...your turn.
Posted by MilkMan, 05-02-2002, 11:55 AM
hehe, fight, fight
Posted by Mike Feury, 05-02-2002, 12:40 PM
Fair enough Mike. I think the only way this dispute can progress sensibly is if people challenge you with specific questions and you respond. Such as Annette has done. I don't see any point in either side continuing with broad generalities, that'll get nowhere except into an unproductive and unattractive flame war. Let's see specific questions and specific responses.
Posted by cannon71, 05-02-2002, 09:57 PM
There isn't much point for me even bothering to defend myself is there? You're just going to "not buy it" and assume my guilt. We are currently in the process of building out a data center in Reno (there is a HostingTech article about this soon to be published), we have T1's and DSL lines installed here, yes -- I don't know if you're aware but DS-3 and OC-3 lines take time to install. We have servers spinning here, we have servers online here. Why is this so hard to believe? We use what we currently have as far as connectivity is concerned. As for Gregg DesElms' comment, yes, perhaps I am foolish for even trying to defend myself when I've already been char-broiled at the stake... I'm not expecting to make any friends or allies here. I'm sure, Gregg, you're already lathering up that ego of your for sake alone that I even bothered to post and call you on your gospel. Is that not reward enough? Last edited by cannon71; 05-02-2002 at 10:10 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 10:18 PM
Huh?
Posted by cannon71, 05-02-2002, 10:24 PM
Ok, I'm done. Thanks for playing Gregg. Let me know if you'd be interested in coming by and joining me for a barbeque sometime soon. Mike Lavers Cedura Networks, CEO
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 10:32 PM

Posted by SentryHost, 05-02-2002, 10:35 PM
I just wanted some clarification here. A group of investors acquired a bunch of web hosting companies and out of this bunch they chose a 20 year old kid with a documented reputation of fraud and a $300,000 debt to be the CEO? These investors wouldn't by chance have the last name Lavers would they? If not please give me their phone number as I have a bridge in New York I am trying to get rid of cheap. I find it hard to believe that the case against you was not justified. So let me get this straight the hundreds of complaints that I have read about your company was really the Attorney General flying around to different libraries around the country making these posts in order to get herself re-elected, and none of them came from legitimate customers? The complaints your company have received match what the case was about, how can you claim that they were fabricated? Another thing I am curious about is why are you starting other businesses while you still owe the state of Washington money? If you look like a crook, and you smell like a crook and I catch you breaking into my house chances are I will shoot you. I have never said this to anyone before but I wish you the worst of luck and truly hope that you fail in all of your future ventures. You are damaging the entire web hosting industry by your presence in it. Customers that deal with you, might think that everyone is like you and be scared to give a good company a shot. Please go back to school because everything your father has taught you is incorrect and you really need to learn that deception is not the way to do things. Just my $0.02, not that your worth it. Last edited by SentryHost; 05-02-2002 at 10:47 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 10:36 PM
Mike, I can't think of a time -- and from reviewing your history in these forums, honestly, I really can't think of a time -- when the reader would like to hear from you more than right now. If you have something to say, we're all listening. This is your chance. Don't waste it. Is there anything else you want to tell us? Please, speak up.
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 10:41 PM
Umm... [raises hand sheepishly] ...I need to speak up on one point, here: I learned... I think it was today, but it could have been yesterday... that at least one thing I reported earlier was incorrect. I originally reported that fines and prices totalled nearly $400,000. I just learned that the total is closer to $300,000. My mistake. I apologize. Now... carry on.
Posted by DesElms, 05-02-2002, 10:57 PM
It doesn't get said much better than that. And, uh... so what about those questions in SentryHost's first paragraph, Mike. We're all ears.
Posted by Annette, 05-03-2002, 07:08 AM
I'd buy a plausible explanation. So far, you have failed to offer one - and yes, most of of us are technically inclined enough to see through some of the non-answer answers you've offered. So, my only conclusion is that my assessment was dead on and my spam complaints had as their target the right party. To this point, you've done nothing but cement the impression that a casual observer would get just by reading through all the material available on the web.
Posted by DesElms, 05-03-2002, 02:26 PM
This morning, Bill Geibler, Editor-in-Chief of HostingTech Magazine, told me that the article about ResellerMatrix's Nevada data center has been cancelled, in part because HostingTech's writers and editors found it nearly impossible to contact anyone from your company, despite repeated attempts by phone, fax, and e-mail. He said they assumed that your company had folded (from their assumption to God's ears, in my opinion... but I digress) and decided not to pursue the story after all. Of course Mr. Geibler would not state to me or confirm that, in addition, they had begun to notice that maybe your company was not well-regarded in this industry and that perhaps it would not be a good idea for a magazine of that stature and good reputation to positively feature a company like yours with such a bad one. What Mr. Geibler told me, instead, was that the June 2002 issue of HostingTech Magazine will contain an article about the legal difference between "bad service" and "fraud," and that the October 2000 Washington Attorney General's Office filing (and ultimate victory) against you and your father for violation of the state's consumer protection statutes will be, and I quote, "a significant element of that article." Actually, initially Mr. Geibler stated it somewhat more strongly than that. But the above language is consistent with what I promised him I would state publicly. So, apparently, HostingTech Magazine did not fail to notice, after all, that what I've been saying about you all along is pretty much.... um.... how did you put it, Mike... "Gospel"... was that how you said it? I'm still not quite ready to post my big reply to everything you've written here, Mike. I'm waiting to see how others deal with you (and you with them), and I'm checking a few facts before I write them here. But I at least wanted to bring some (sorely needed) truth to this ridiculous claim of yours regarding the HostingTech Magazine article about the really cool data center you're building. I didn't want anyone here to be misled. NOTE TO THE READER: According to Mr. Geibler, anyone who subscribes to HostingTech Magazine by May 8th will have gotten their subscription request to them in time to receive the June 2002 issue containing the aforementioned Lavers article. Since you'd be applying for a free subscription by clicking on the link he provided, and since the content of this upcoming article is of critical interest to those who haunt these forums (and to anyone in the hosting industry, in my opinion), I didn't think anyone would consider it crass commercialism for me to tell you to click here to subscribe. Thanks, Mike, for providing me with that really nice HostingTech lead. Is there any other claim you'd like to make here that I can refute for the readers? Last edited by DesElms; 05-03-2002 at 10:59 PM.
Posted by NewMerchant, 05-04-2002, 05:42 AM
Hello, I'm quite exhausted after reading every single word in this thread. Quite an impressive read. I would like to ask DesElms what is in this for him? I mean, if they are crooks then saying it is your right as long as "you" can personally prove it. Readers will make their own judgments pertaining to the information already given. Why are you so apt to continue to drag this conversation any further? I'm not saying that what has been posted here in the thread is useless mind you. What I am saying is I've never seen anyone take something to the extreme that you seem to be doing without either a true grudge against someone or some sort of an underlying factor. There was enough information given early on in this thread for others to make a distinction as to their own perspective and wish to do business with the company. Anything else is overkill, redundant and absolutley meaningless. I personally think that the names of the hosting companies seeking to chop off the head of "anyone" whether a fraud or someone you have a vengence for is extremely poor for your own advertisement. My observation really means nothing. I wouldn't have even posted at all, but this last post where you (DesElms) seem to be enjoying the disslove of someone you see to be dishonorable in such a way that I just had to say something. You know, all those who go to church and hear of the path of rights and wrongs in life, to better make your judgments upright, never hear that Moses was a murderer before called by the almighty. Maybe this man has repented and is trying to change his previous ways of doing wrong. I'm not saying this is the case, or that he did or didn't do wrong, but I think this information could have been used/presented in a far more meaningful way. The man was guilty by all counts in this thread and when given the opportunity to speak on his behalf, you mocked him and called him a liar in no particular terms. I assure you that if this company and the individuals that you so earnestly have to name and demean are guilty of crimes in one form or another, they would be either in court or behind bars if they indeed deserved to be. Being that at least one of the person(s) you have named has responded to the postings here in this thread, it would appear that they care enough about what is being said to at least respond, and this person is certainly not incarcerated at this point. I hope the person who sent the information off to the BBB and assosications that regulate business made the right choice as well. What you did is very powerful and would prove to be quite a burden to carry knowing you absolutley destroyed someone and then later find out they didn't deserve all that had done to them. As far as a HostingTech magazine having an article on the differences between fraud and legal representations of this business, I hope they have a law degree. If not, this topic would be better suited for those who do. If that magazine even brings this man's name or his business into their print, they could be held responisble for the printed information. Let's hope they don't stupe to that level. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Last edited by NewMerchant; 05-04-2002 at 06:27 AM.
Posted by NewMerchant, 05-04-2002, 05:48 AM
Oops... Sorry. I accidently reposted instead of editing the above. It wouldn't let me delete this. Last edited by NewMerchant; 05-04-2002 at 06:20 AM.
Posted by cannon71, 05-04-2002, 06:23 AM
Bill Gates was in his early 20's when he started Microsoft, so was Ellison (Oracle) and McNealy (Sun)... are we still hung up on this? Care to post these "hundreds" of complaints?? I didn't think so... Everything my father has taught me? Where do you get off? Mind posting your name and your phone number? ...Hiding behind an alias, throwing out insults like no tomorrow... you make me sick to my stomach. All talk -- from a competitor no doubt. See a trend anyone? Last edited by cannon71; 05-04-2002 at 07:11 AM.
Posted by cannon71, 05-04-2002, 06:25 AM
Don't be gunshy on those retractions Gregg...
Posted by NewMerchant, 05-04-2002, 06:37 AM
Cannon, You are not helping yourself with getting angry and posting a response as you just did. Do yourself a favor and edit the post. No name calling. You are called a thief and a liar in this thread, just explain why you are not in the proper way. Although I can understand your anger, you need to control it better.
Posted by cannon71, 05-04-2002, 07:07 AM
I appreciate your post NewMerchant. I'm glad to see at least someone here approach DesElms' posts objectively (other than myself -- his target). You brought up several good points, I hope DesElms takes them to heart. If he would take the time to meet me (which he has not) he may find that I am in fact not the criminal he so adamantly claims me to be. At most I am guilty of growing a company too quickly, during web hostings infancy, and not having the ability to accommodate this growth appropriately. In other words, not being able to supply customers with the immediate, quality service they deserve. Mind you, this was 1996-1998, long before most of the posters of this forum had even heard of the term "web hosting", and I, above all, have learned from my mistakes and am working to make things better. I, and my previous company were targeted by the government, that is public record. It would have cost us, ultimately, hundreds of thousands of dollars just to defend the case and thousands of hours just to see it to a legitimate end...we chose instead to count our losses. I truthfully believe that the Washington Attorney General was wrong, the evidence they provided (dating between 1997-1999; of which Gregg DesElms had no part) and their charges against us did not match up. I wish DesElms would at least provide his personal evidence of our supposed wrongdoing torwards him if he could at least do that! I'm sure he's doing everything he can to try to prevent our article in HostingTech from being published, I've been working with Doug Mohney at HostingTech for several months to develop the article, it is less a "advertisement" than a how-to guide on building a data center (we are infrequently mentioned, only as a case scenario). I am sure DesElms will go to no ends in his attempts to hurt us in every way he possibly can... he's been doing it for some time now and believe it or not, we've actually become accustomed to it (like a fly in the Serengeti). I don't mind so much that people hate me personally, that's fine, they don't know me, they've never met me. But when they start to spread misinformation and blatant libel -- that is where I draw the line. Make sure you know what you know, without a doubt, before you post it -- you are responsible for your words. Mike Lavers Cedura Networks, CEO Last edited by cannon71; 05-04-2002 at 07:25 AM.
Posted by NewMerchant, 05-04-2002, 02:26 PM
Hi Mike, You did well by editing your post. Correcting mistakes is what this is all about. If you've made mistakes in your past, do your best to correct them and treat people right. A good name is better than honey. A bad name may or may never be totally cleaned up. I don't know you either, but I do tend to lean towards caution as many people would reading the thread. So in other words, becuase of the bad flack whether true or not I most likely wouldn't do business with you. But only because I tend to stay on the side of caution, not because I necessarily believe you are a criminal. With that aside, and even if you have made some mistakes either not so intentionally or some more, let's say "not so kosher", business transactions etc... In the past. This can be rectified by helping people. By giving what you advertise and not stealing, lying, or cheating another single soul in you business endeavors. I tend to lean towards giving people the opportunity to rectify situations rather than condemn them to hell. I prefer mercy and not ruining a name. Simply because things change and people grow. Do yourself a favor and keep your business practice above table. It's a long term solution we all seek even if we don't think so at the time. Have a great day.
Posted by SentryHost, 05-04-2002, 04:16 PM
I don't believe age was the only problem I cited with the investors decision to choose you. I believe I said with a known reputation for fraud and a $300,000 debt. My point wasn't just your age. My point was if investors were to read this thread, do you think they would be knocking down your door to give you money? I think not. Of course I do find it quite funny that you chose to ignore these statements and concentrate solely on the age issue. There are plenty of teenagers on these boards that run excellent hosting companies with great support, so I believe you missed my point. LOL, I don't need to post the complaints, the BBB does a good job of summarizing them for us. Here is an excerpt from the Better Business Bureaus site on just one of your ventures. "Complaints concern no response to e-mails regarding problems with service, billing issues, and not honoring the 30-day money back guarantee. On May 15, 2000, Matrixcubed requested that the BBB not forward any complaints or correspondence to them." Wow so many complaints that you got tired of reading them. Any responsible company would have allowed them to continue so they could start "making good" with all these customers, but your lack of care for them is disgusting. Frankly you make me sick to stomach as well. Honestly you and your family come off as so low class that I believe I would worry for my families safety if you had my name and phone number. BTW I thought you were 20? Asking to meet me at the flag pole makes me think your little brother must have been at the keyboard. But then again you are pretty immature so I guess it kind of makes sense. Yes you are correct sir. There is no validity to any of this thread, don't try to address the issues, just say "Oh I did nothing wrong, LOOK it is just a bunch of competitors trying to smear my name." GROW UP, the information here is valid. Just admit it and move on.
Posted by cannon71, 05-04-2002, 08:10 PM
What's done is done, the investors were well aware of the situation, I made sure of that. rep·u·ta·tion: The general estimation in which a person is held by the public. I'm not hiding behind an alias SentryHost...if you had any class or integrity...neither would you. If you prefer to be a coward and hide behind an alias, that's fine. I'm out in the open, and of course I have people like you with their sights on me... that's to be expected. Listen SentryHost, you don't know me -- so whatever you think you know or believe, I suggest you keep it to yourself. You've never been a customer of ours (to the best of my knowledge, feel free to enlighten me otherwise), so how would you even begin know? I guess you did not read any of my posts, well, that's your mistake. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. The same to you, whoever you are.
Posted by SentryHost, 05-04-2002, 08:36 PM
Why are you so bent on finding out who I am? I am not hiding behind an alias. I choose not to make my name public because there are sick people on the internet who might use that information in a way that could cause harm to me or my family. Is that what you want the information for? I don't have to stick my hand in a fire to know its hot. I don't have to travel overseas to know there is a war going on. Can you really be this ignorant? The only information I am reffering to are things that have been DOCUMENTED not only by the government, but by previous customers of yours and the Better Business Bureau. I don't have to meet a serial killer to realize that I don't want him in my house. Don't be stupid. Your misdeeds are documented everywhere, and now you are saying that I have to know you to know what you are up to. Why are you so interested in who I am? Do you want to silence me by force? I have no idea what you are talking about, but I assure you I read all of your threads. If you are trying to make a clean start good luck, but don't try to act like you were wronged by the Attorney General of Washington State, the Better Business Bureau, and all of your previous subscribers. I see no evidence of a conspiracy. Here you are again making a reference to not knowing who I am. Why is this so important to you?
Posted by SentryHost, 05-04-2002, 08:48 PM
Attention Mods: I think enough information has been presented in this thread for consumers to make an informed decision and request that at your discretion you close this thread.
Posted by DesElms, 05-04-2002, 10:23 PM
Not so fast, SentryHost. I appreciate your comments. But there's much left to be said. Much. And despite the brief exchange between you and Mike just now, this thread has not degraded to a flame war or anything like that. There's plenty of good information to come... believe me. Mike still hasn't answered a lot of direct and specific questions, and I want him to have the chance here in this thread, where all the allegations against him are. Plus, I still haven't really responded to Mike's series of posts. I'm still sort of standing back and watching and collecting data and verifying a couple things yet. Patience. Please.
Posted by cannon71, 05-04-2002, 10:26 PM
Now you know the position I'm in...perhaps you should re-read that statement of yours. Have I ever threatened you? No. As for your "documented" references, no specific customers of ours have been metioned. The BBB's public record of us is simply based on the AG case, nothing more -- at least as far as what they've presented me. Now you're wishing me luck? Didn't you previously state that you wish me all the misfortune that could befall me? Hmm... Maybe if you were in my shoes you'd see things differently, or maybe I just give anonymous posters too much credit. It'd prefer to know who my enemies (not by my choice) are by name... yet I doubt you will ever come out of hiding. Perhaps that speaks more of your character. I also would not object if this thread was closed. Gregg, SentryHost, et al: Whatever reasons you have for hating me please try to put it behind you. You've made your opinions known, now move on to bigger and better things.
Posted by DesElms, 05-04-2002, 11:19 PM
This isn't about hating you, Mike. This isn't personal, really. It's you who are making it that way. The truth is, if I had to state who I was more angry at, it would be your ol' man. But I've already made that point earlier. No point in belaboring it. Listen... you're obviously trying to divert attention away from the specifics by making a lot of noise about you being a victim, here. And that won't feed the bulldog. That's not what this thread has become about. Stop sparring with SentryHost on the really personal stuff and get back to the specific allegations leveled against you in this thread. You want to look credible and mature? Do that and despite your past deeds, the readers here will respect you more for it. There's plenty in this thread for you to respond to. Go back to the beginning -- vsomored's original post. Start there. Open notepad on your machine and summarize his complaint first. Then go on to the next specific complaint and summarize it. Keep going through the now 7 pages of this thread and cherrypick the specific complaints about you from each posting. If there's no complaint in a given posting, i.e., if it's just a shot-from-the-hip remark or a re-hashing of something said earlier, then just skip over it to the next one. Distill the specific allegations against you from the beginning of this thread to its end and then begin to draft your response. List 'em in order, 1, 2, 3... and respond to each. If it takes two posts or three, then use them. At this point in this thread, everyone would like to hear from you on the specifics and I'm not sure if anyone would mind if it takes you two or three posts to do so -- that is, as long as you're really being responsive. It has been suggested that if you were trying to repent and start anew then you should be allowed to do so. Nothing would make this industry happier than if you had an epiphany and turned your life around. The first step is to acknowledge your deeds, explain them, come clean and tell us how and why it won't happen again. I'd be the first to applaud it and to suggest to the world that you deserve a shot. But pretending none of it happened; acting like the victim; refusing to take responsiblity; and trying to divert the reader's attention from the real issues won't get it done. This is your chance. Just look at how many views this thread has gotten. You've got the attention of the entire industry -- or at least a big chunk of it. Hosting companies are reading. Customers are reading. The investigator from the Washington State AG's office is reading. Even the reporter from HostingTech is reading this -- and that article isn't in the can yet. You can still influence it with what you say here. Mike, I'm tellin' ya... this is your shot. You want to turn it around? Then turn it around right here, right now, in this place... where everyone's listening. Respond to the complaints and allegations, very specifically, one-by-one... every last one... until you're understood. I believe, as long as you're candid and forthright, you won't regret it. And everyone here will appreciate it. Trust me. So how 'bout everyone just sit back and let this thread cool for the rest of the weekend while Mike prepares. Lookin' forward to hearing from you, Mike. Seriously. Make it good. We'll all read it carefully. Last edited by DesElms; 05-04-2002 at 11:34 PM.
Posted by Mike Feury, 05-04-2002, 11:40 PM
I disagree. So far, the information here is very one-sided. Mike Lavers is claiming innocence, yet has not backed up his claim by focusing on all the issues raised - personal banter is neither informative nor explanatory.
Posted by SentryHost, 05-04-2002, 11:47 PM
I apologize I personally was getting sick of responding to this thread, and I kind of assumed everyone was sick of reading it, which is why I have not and will not respond to him again. So do not close this thread and please carry on. I just personally found that it is impossible to talk to this Mike Lavers guy. It is kind of like talking to a used car salesman, you ask about the price and he tells you what a special deal you are getting. If he would just answer the questions presented to him it would make posting to this thread a lot more productive. I apologize for loosing my patience.
Posted by NexDog, 05-05-2002, 02:37 AM
This is all too confusing. Can people just write their allegations/questions in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 format so Mike can respond easily? I doubt that anyone that's been following this thread wants to go through 7 pages of it........
Posted by cannon71, 05-05-2002, 02:58 AM
The moment you uttered my name and my family members names it became personal, Gregg. My "ol' man" is not responsible for my actions, leave him out of this. I can't divert attention away from the specifics when there aren't any specifics. Ok, there's the AG case, I've covered that already. Have you mentioned a single customer? Transaction? Any specific case where we've done something wrong? No. You haven't. I'm not hiding anything here, you still havent responded to my inquiry about any specific cases you have documented (assuming you even have any documented -- I don't think you do). I'd be glad to if there was something worthwhile or even legitimate to respond to... unfortunately there isn't. vsomored's post was just another attack and I don't feel the need to respond to it. If the posters in this thread would conduct themselves in a civil nature, we might get somewhere. Then would you be so kind as to move on? Leave me and my family alone? If you honestly believe what you're saying here -- STOP. That's it, STOP. If I have to concede defeat for you to get a clue, fine, here, I waive my white flag. And if there is the attention on this tread, like you say Gregg, then I hope they'll see this for what it really is. A digruntled customer taking his feuds too fara note to the other hosts reading this, remember the name "Gregg DesElms". This guy has been a true Hosting Nightmare from the get-gohe will make you regret ever trying to help him host his web-site. He will go after you, your family, and your friends. If you run into him, kindly decline his business if only I could go back in time. Im done. Unless, should Gregg or someone else bring up any specific cases, dont expect any more word from me.
Posted by DesElms, 05-05-2002, 03:12 AM
Oh, Mike. I'm so disappointed. I really had high hopes, here. I thought you'd jump on this opportunity to set the record straight. I was even right in the middle of drafting a reply to SentryHost's apology and his comments about how difficult and frustrating it was to respond to you. I was, I swear, when you posted this, right in the middle of telling him that while you may have been difficult to communicate with in the past, I had a good feeling about this time; that I was impressed with how you were staying here and communicating instead of disappearing into the night as you have in other forums as soon as the facts get to thick. I was just telling him I was excited about the possibilities... the possibility that you'd actually take this chance to turn things around. [sigh] Okay, well, then so be it. I want to respond to all the things you've been writing here lately Mike -- sort of set the record straight about a few things and provide some of the specifics you keep harping about. But it's after midnight where I am now and I'm tired. And tomorrow's Sunday and I have a bunch of family stuff I gotta' do tomorrow. I'll try to post here tomorrow or, worst case Monday. And we'll all see where we are by then. Okay, Mike? I can see you're frustrated. So have we been. I say everyone -- including you -- lets the thread just cool for now. There will be plenty to discuss in a day or so.
Posted by rally, 05-05-2002, 10:05 AM
Mike, in all honesty are you saying that annettes post was an attacck on you too? I personally saw it as a very straight forward and legitimate question.
Posted by vsomored, 05-08-2002, 03:02 PM
Mike, I am a single victim of your actions. I had paid for one year upfront. When your service with Alabanza was discontinued and had no way to contact Reseller Matrix / Cedura Networks. I decided to change providers. I have send you several emails to cancel my service with you in January, which you ignored. I had requested you to credit the remaining months of service back to my credit card. I do not even care about the three months of service you owe me. Personally I think that it is sad to see that you have to steal to be able to survive. Enjoy the couple of dollars. Someday you will not have any of it and there will be no one you can turn to. Last edited by vsomored; 05-08-2002 at 03:16 PM.
Posted by DesElms, 05-11-2002, 12:57 PM
Well, Mike... there's a specific, just like you requested. So can you explained that one? Earlier you wrote: "Have you mentioned a single customer? Transaction? Any specific case where we've done something wrong? No. You haven't." Well, actually the answer to that, had I responded, would have been "yes." It seems to me there were plenty of specifics right in this thread. And now it seems that vsomored has presented a very specific item as well. Seems you've absconded with some of his money. Or at least that's his claim. Mike, would you mind, please, not claiming any more that no one has presented you with specifics? Begin with vsomored's. Could you please explain this? And could you then circle back to Annette's question about the spam? And if you look through this thread, you'll find all kinds of things to which you can respond. Could you please do so? Please? In the meantime, for those wondering, the reason I haven't posted the response here that I've promised is that this has ended-up being a week from hell, workwise. In fact, though it's Saturday, I'm on my way out the door now to inspect a jobsite 40 miles from here. But I've gotten my response about half done. And I'm waiting on some information from the Washington Attorney General's Office -- some specifics, just like Mike wanted. Mike, from your writings earlier, it seems like you only read the original complaint that the Washington AG's office filed on October 18, 2000. It seems you're saying that that document contained no specifics. And you're right, it didn't. Such court filings never do. That filing was just an allegation, made in the form of that original filing. Then you answer and make an appearance. Then a trial date is set and preliminary motion hearing dates prior thereto may also be set. Then, either in response to your motions, or in support of theirs, or at trial itself, the State would have presented the details that backed-up its allegations. That's how the system works. Of course, since you and your father didn't hire an attorney (i.e., your father asked the judge if he, himself, could represent the companies and you, which the judge denied), and since a man who acts as his own attorney has a fool for a client, perhaps you weren't aware of how the system works. In fact, based on how the case went down, I'd say that's a fair assessment. Had you hired an attorney, or if you'd at least bothered to learn how the system works, you'd have known about your right to file a motion for discovery prior to trial. That motion would have been granted without a hearing, without objection from the State, and without hesitation on the judge's part because it is your right to know what evidence the state had against you. Motions for discovery are a routine part of pre-trial activies. Upon receipt of the judge's order for discovery, the state would then have made copies of its entire case file -- every last complaint from every last person who complained about you. All twenty-something of them. You would have seen their names, addresses, email addresses, the precise allegations they were making, the documentation they provided to support those allegations, their sworn affidavits, etc., etc, etc. Every last detail of every last one of the 70-something counts of your having violated the state's consumer protection laws would have been there for you to see and, ultimately, rebut in court if you were able. But, alas, your father's arrogance got the better of you both. He hired no attorney. He made no motions for discovery. He went to court, dragging you with him, completely unprepared -- armed only with a general denial of the allegations. He asked the judge if he could represent himself, you and the companies -- the last two of which no judge would permit. A man can represent himself (though any good judge would caution against it before allowing it), but he cannot represent any other entities, be they human or corporate, unless he's an attorney -- at least not in court, he can't. The judge then asked you and your father if you intended to present any kind of material defense to the allegations. In fact, I think he was more direct than that. I believe the judge asked you and your father if the allegations were essentially true, or something like that. After going back and forth a bit and being shot down by the judge a few times, I believe you and your father eventually stated that the allegations were correct -- or perhaps you just gave up and didn't deny them. Again, I'm waiting for the transcript so I can speak more authoritatively. But the above is what those who were in the court room at the time have told me they saw. Then, upon realizing that you basically had no defense, the judge found that the state had met its burden (after all, the judge, unlike you, had seen the details of the State's case), and he ordered a summary judgement in favor of the state. Isn't that about how it went, Mike? So don't you think it's pretty... well... I hate to use the word "stupid" here because I don't want anyone to think I'm resorting to name-calling, but perhaps that's the best word in this case... Don't you think it's pretty stupid of you to now state in this thread that no one presented you with any specifics? The State's case file was something like eight inches thick -- chock full of specifics! Given how the system works, it's neither the system's fault, nor ours here, that you don't know them. But, of course, you do know them, don't you? After all, you were there. So, really, Mike, just stop it. Let's begin with vsomored's complaint. What have you done with his money? Hmmm? In the meantime, I've got to go inspect that jobsite now. I'll circle back here and respond properly sometime later this weekend. Until then, the readers, I'm sure, would just love to hear from Mike. So, Mike, your turn. Last edited by DesElms; 05-11-2002 at 01:02 PM.
Posted by case, 05-12-2002, 03:28 AM
the posts in this topic are pretty bad , one guy is a rip off artist , the other is a pissed off stalker , i mean ripped off customer . ill remember not to deal with either of you guys .
Posted by NewMerchant, 05-12-2002, 03:59 AM
I haven't been back to the thread for a couple days. I come back to see if maybe the differences are worked out and forgiveness has been given, what I see since I posted last is what I saw when I started reading the first post. Harbored resentment.
Posted by DesElms, 05-12-2002, 11:54 AM
Thank you for your comments. I'm sorry you missed the point.
Posted by case, 05-12-2002, 12:08 PM
i think we all got the point
Posted by DesElms, 05-12-2002, 12:44 PM
This isn't about personal differences, NewMerchant. Nor is it about harbored resentment. Or even forgiveness -- though I admit it would be nice if Mike would do or say something here that would make us want to offer it. This isn't a thread on a Unitarian Universalist web site. It's not the place for a group hug. My friends who are cops or prosecutors talk about getting this sort of reaction from people -- people who seem not to grasp the concept of the need for consequences for bad acts. It's so easy for those who have never known the sting of having been on the receiving end of the intentionally fraudulent behavior of a con artist to advocate such ideal notions. Since this thread has taken the direction it's now taken -- a thread where the Lavers are, once and for all, fully exposed and are being invited to finally explain themselves and to even turn themselves around if possible -- I've received a few private messages but a ton of private emails from those who have been burned by the Lavers. One stands out in my mind because it was not the first time I had heard from this woman. She had contacted me back in October of 2000 when I posted warnings about the Lavers on a web hosting reseller review web site. Back then she was almost in tears over what the Lavers had done to her, and she wanted to tell me about it. She had been ripped-off by them -- in just exactly the same way that the complaintants in the Washington AG's suit claimed, and in precisely the same way that vsomored and others in this and other threads here have complained. She dared to post a recounting of her awful Lavers experience on a public hosting reseller review web site, as I had. Remember that the Lavers, through ResellerMatrix, were selling hosting services to web hosting resellers, like her. So she had a hosting business of her own -- one she had quickly moved away from ResellerMatrix before she lost it altogether. Then she posted her experiences on that hosting reseller review board. The Lavers immediately retaliated. They went to several well-known web sites where people can post reviews of web hosting companies and, pretending to be her, they submitted her hosting company to those sites so that her hosting company would be listed so that others could submit reviews. Then they went back to those sites pretending to be customers of hers and they posted horrific, awful lies about her and her hosting company. They even publicly posted some personal, private information about her which they only knew because she had been a customer of theirs and she disclosed same at the time she signed-up with them and gave them her credit card information -- precious personal data which she entrusted to them in good faith as part of her transaction with them. By working with a couple of the owners of those hosting review sites, she was able to determine, from IP addresses and other information, that, indeed, the Lavers had been the culprits -- just as the then-owner of recellar.com and I were able to determine that it was the Lavers who spammed that board hundreds and hundreds of times after I had posted there that the Washington AG's office was suing them. Though she explained the situation and was eventually able to get many of those hosting review board owners to remove the Lavers' fraudulent postings, the entire incident ultimately completely destroyed the hosting company she had worked so hard to build. She eventually closed it. Today, she's the owner of another hosting company. She's a semi-frequent poster in these forums. And in her new hosting company, just as with her old one before the Lavers trashed it, she has a stellar record of customer support and a long list of happy customers -- belying the awful, false things that the Lavers, posing as her customers, falsely claimed about her in public places back then. After reading this thread she contacted me again. She said she wanted to chime-in here, in part so that people like you, NewMerchant -- people who are obviously good and who preach turning the other cheek and the virtue of forgiveness -- would understand that this is different. This is not just a situation where a web hosting provider happens to be just doing it badly. That will be one of the salient points, as I understand it, of the upcoming and aforementioned HostingTech article which seeks to define the difference between bad hosting providers and those who commit outright fraud. This is a situation where a bona fide family of con artists with a long and verifiable history of hurting people happens to have chosen our industry as a place to ply their trade. The woman who contacted me wanted to post here to make sure that people like you -- and, now, it seems the person using the case alias -- would not be under the sort of misapprehension that you, in fact, appear to be under. She wanted to lend her words of support here so that precisely the type of reaction that you and case are having would not become prevalent in this thread. But she didn't. And do you know why? Because she's afraid. She's flat-out afraid of the Lavers. They really hurt her before. They brought her to tears. They ruined her business. They took food from her table. Literally. She's afraid that if she posted her story here the Lavers would do it to her again. So she asked me to try to tell it without divulging who she is. I promised her I would, and I thank you, NewMerchant, for providing the opportunity. And hers is only one of the dozen or so such stories that have been privately emailed to me since this thread took the direction it has now taken. There are many who are afraid of the Lavers. Many, like her, who are afraid to post here. What do we say to them, NewMerchant? Is it time for them to forgive? Of course it would be nice if foregiveness were an element of this thread and of this situation! I would like nothing better than to be in a place where that's what I felt compelled to offer the Lavers. But before forgiveness, isn't there supposed to be atonement? Confession? Some kind of mea culpa? Wouldn't it be easier to forgive if the Lavers would at least own-up to their acts, make restitution where appropriate, profess a new enlightenment, promise a new way of behaving in the future, and then actually do so? Your heart is clearly in the right place, NewMerchant. I applaud your sentiments, your obvious good will, and your forgiving nature. Were the Lavers simply bad hosting providers who hurt by omission, perhaps forgiveness would be easy to come by. But they hurt by commission. And they're not only unremorseful, they won't even acknowledge their acts. That merits a warning to others, NewMerchant, not the offering of an olive branch. Last edited by DesElms; 05-12-2002 at 12:58 PM.
Posted by case, 05-12-2002, 01:19 PM
i understand people got ripped off , and that sucks . I understand you're trying to warn people about these type of practices . There is a major difference between informing the public and what i would like to call your personal vendetta . Getting ripped off is the worst , and it happens to the best of us . Shoot , i was majorly ripped off by a host on this forum that people seem to love and do nothing but say good things about . Its ok though , i learned from the experience , and i got over it , maybe its your turn to do the samething , thats all im saying .... oh yeah , case isnt an alias , its short for casey =]
Posted by DesElms, 05-12-2002, 01:30 PM
Okay, Casey. Your point is understood. And, again, thanks for your input. My use of the word "alias" wasn't intended as a pejorative, as seems to concern you. Every user of these forums is identified by the use of an "alias" or username. Yours is "case." Mine is "deselms." That's all I was referring to. Last edited by DesElms; 05-12-2002 at 01:38 PM.
Posted by cannon71, 05-12-2002, 10:20 PM
You and I both vsomored -- Alabanza victimized both our company (ResellerMatrix) and our customers/resellers (you). I've responded to this much earlier in thread explaining what happened, but to sum it up: what happened was Alabanza raised their costs signifigantly, made us immediately unprofitable, we announced to Alabanza that we planned to move our customers to a less expensive service over a period o fa few months, and Alabanza's response was to shut us down prior to our pre-payment period being complete. vsomored, I'm sorry that we could not have made this transition easier for you, we did the best we could with the timeframe Alabanza forced upon us (approximately 72 hours to move all of our resellers). We made several (a dozen or so) announcements about the transition, explaining the process as best we could, as well as potential consequences/benefits of the transition. This is flat-out slander Gregg. We would never have done something like this, never! The only pausible explanation I can come up with is that her company was one of our resellers involved in the Alabanza transition and she received negative reviews from her customers because of the unexpected downtime caused by Alabanza's actions. And, this woman, (I'm guessing here, since that's pretty much all that seems to be happening on this thread), assumed that we were to blame for the reviews... proceeding then to contact the review site, stating that the negative reviews were our fault. What doesn't add up Gregg, is why would we post a negative review about one of our resellers? They generate all of our business! Gregg, you don't mention her name -- fine, that's pretty much what I expect from a forum. I suppose this is the perfect example of rights without responsbility. But you also don't mention the review site, you don't metion the time this supposedly took place, you don't mention any e-mails that were exchanged between this woman and the host review site, you don't mention anything -- it's baseless and is no better than an issue of the Enquirer. The Alabanza situation was an unfortunate one, and we regret not acting sooner to get our customers off of their servers before they had the oportunity to attempt to shut us down -- this woman was likely one of our customers hurt by this (as was vsomored) and we have apologize to them personally for any damages Alabanza's actions may have caused them via e-mail and telephone. But in return, our resellers received 2-months free hosting on our new network (January 15th - March 15th) and we worked with many of them to get them back up and running again. Although, there was a signifigant number of customers who just refused to return our phone calls, e-mails, etc. after Alabanza had shut us down, we did our best to maintain the relationship as we understood that a lot of trust was placed on our shoulders by our resellers (as was a lot of our trust was placed on Alabanza)... vsomoored, feel free to contact me (either by e-mail or PM) about this case and I will look into it for you, I've already requested that you get in touch with me about this as I'd like to resolve it if possible. But iit's really up to you. Gregg, e-mail me all of the complaints you received if you like -- I will do my best to address them. I cannot promise much more than that, especially when you're spray-painting it all on a forum. Some of you may have seen the letter that Jumpline posted on their web-site a month or so ago, during their similiar transition away from Alabanza. It was quite similiar to the letter we received from Tom Cunningham (CEO of Alabanza) stating that they were terminating our relationship with 72 hours notice. I wish I could find a link, I believe they've since taken it down, but if someone at Jumpline still has a copy feel free to post a link to it here. I will look through my records of a copy of ours. Oh, and as for your comment about "how the system works" Gregg. As much as I appreciate your concending comments, we did, in fact, proceed through the system and by the time we got to the discovery stage, their (the AG) press release style announcement of 20 complaints dropped to 7-8 complaints, half of those we had no record of being customers of ours. Let me know when you've received all of your documents and read through them...sounds like you don't know what you're talking about again. (trend? naw... of course not) I envision you checking your mailbox hourly in antificipation of the AG's packages you requested about our case. May I suggest curls with 20 pound weights? Be forewarned, there's more blank pages in these documents than an unused sketch book. Last edited by cannon71; 05-12-2002 at 10:43 PM.
Posted by Choppy, 05-12-2002, 11:34 PM
Just wanted to add a little note/post to this... How about you all stop acting like children and get on to whatever you were doing... Im sure there is other customers they must look after... Well go look after them and stop playing these silly games like children... You can cry all you want, you prob will never see your money again... The market is so big that if the company and people involved are still permited to trade the same thing is going to happen! Or do you think people find WHT on there first adventure. Customers ex customers find a better solution... you have been burned get off the ground and get your sites back up THIS IS PRIORITY>>>>> This thread should be closed for Gods sake its not a court case...
Posted by MilkMan, 05-12-2002, 11:59 PM
yeah, close this thread
Posted by Marts, 05-13-2002, 12:00 AM
Spot on milk man and choppy
Posted by Chicken, 05-13-2002, 12:20 AM
The only reason I'm closing the thread is that after 8 pages, it seems to have gone all over the place, and I question whther anything was resolved or answered. If you have a specific problem (etc) , feel free to post it. If you have a complaint about services not being provided, you need to discuss the matter with your credit card company and/or the Washington AG, or other law enforcement agency which will help you.