VO bulk reseller out!

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Posted by NelsonT, 08-16-2002, 10:50 PM
Hi, Venturesonline roll out Bulk type reseller plan (WHM/CPanel), and stop offering old plans. I think the bulk reseller war begins, because VO is a key player in the market. Any one can talk about their uptime?
Posted by Akash, 08-16-2002, 10:52 PM
out of the six months i was there, approx 15 minutes.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-16-2002, 11:07 PM
IMO, the old reseller plans where you buy your domain's hosting 1 at a time for a discount is dying fast. Any host who thinks they'll get long term growth with that business model is in for a rough ride. I challenge anyone to conduct a survey - "What do resellers want" - (1). To buy each domain's hosting separately for a discount. (2). Buy "X" amount of disk space and "X" amount of data transfer and host as many domains as you can fit inside those 2 useage parameters. (2) would be the most popular by a LONG_SHOT!!
Posted by Paul L., 08-16-2002, 11:21 PM
I would disagree with you on that we was doing quite well on the old plans and after a revamp we will be back offering them once more in addition to the bulk plans. You got to remember not everybody has cash sitting around to pay out each month for bulk space they my not sell.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-16-2002, 11:30 PM
20/mth is "cash sitting around" ? Heck, you can get WHM/CPanel for $10/mth these days. So, money is no object anymore. Supply and demand rules the market. It's the reason that a company like mchost has grown so rapidly. If you give folks a choice of the 2 types of reseller plans, I would say the vast majority would take the WHM/Cpanel plan. Probably 95% to 5%. They can setup their own plans and edit each plan as they need to and don't need to run back to their supplier etc. Too many advantages to mention here. One question would support my statement - "Which type of reseller plan is growing the fastest?"
Posted by vipe, 08-16-2002, 11:32 PM
I agree, plus with the older plans you would not have to oversell to make a guaranteed profit. I'm glad that VO will be bringing back the old plans in addition to the bulk plans.
Posted by Annette, 08-16-2002, 11:36 PM
For people at WHT, there's no doubt about that.
Posted by Paul L., 08-16-2002, 11:38 PM
When I have real data of whats best out of the 2 plans I will be sure to post it. I am sure both markets are doing just fine the only data you have is what is talked about here on WHT and that is still a very small % of the hosting market. I do agree there is a big market in bulk plans but I also know there is a demand for the pay by plan resellers also.
Posted by vipe, 08-16-2002, 11:43 PM
Aussie Bob, Of course there's "too many advantages"; it's clearly in your best interest. There's advantages and cons to both sides. Bulk plans are growing faster due to two things: specific plan creation and overselling. Also, with VO's old reseller plans there was no such thing as "running back to the supplier" as you stated.
Posted by Rochen, 08-17-2002, 12:13 AM
I certainly agree Ventures Online are going to be very tough competition for players like MChost, Voxtreme, SplashHost etc. due to their long standing reputation in the industry.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 12:28 AM
What makes you think that folks from WHT are any different than anyone else?? Maybe they're a little more informed and educated of the options out there. Maybe this is why they prefer the bulk style reseller plan. I pity those folks who are less informed. BTW, I never mentioned WHT in this discussion. It is plain and clear that the client gets more benefits from a bulk style reseller plan as evidenced by the explosive growth of providers like mchost. As far as market trends and forces go, it would be safe to say the bulk style reseller plan is growing much faster than the older style plan. I cannot imagine a host building their hosting business using the older style plans where they have to run back to their host for every little thing. It's unimaginable. I would hazard a guess that 95% of resellers on an old style reseller plan would jump in a heartbeat to the bulk style reseller plans. There's no doubt that they're a fast growing section of the hosting market. This has got to hurt the existing reseller model. Just my thoughts...
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 12:30 AM
So you could do everything you can do with WHM with their old reseller plans then?? Could you setup instantly new domains? Could you edit the many features of that domain? Could you make changes to the DNS Zones?? Could you make changes to the MX records?? If not, then there's "running back"
Posted by Rochen, 08-17-2002, 12:35 AM
Aussie Bob - I think that is all possible, providing you have purchased a "plan" ahead of time. I will agree with your point however that bulk reselling is the way forward and I think it really all depends on how many sites you are hosting. The old style reseller plan may still have a place for people wanting to host there own domains and only have a few. However when you reach say 3 or 5 domains on the older style plan it becomes far more cost effective to switch to the bulk kind. I also agree that the bulk plans offer far greater flexibility. A lot of it also comes down to personal choice.
Posted by Paul L., 08-17-2002, 12:36 AM
Yup you sure can do all of that.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-17-2002, 12:42 AM
There will always be competition ...until maybe something revolutionary and perhaps patented comes out. Things are always changing in the hosting industry.
Posted by Rochen, 08-17-2002, 12:48 AM
I hope "another trend" (hint) will be coming along very soon
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 12:53 AM
I don't see anything major that can happen. I've racked my brain thinking about this but there's nothing much that can evolve that could be called "revolutionary". Maybe VPS, instant backup server solutions and outsourced support systems and stuff like that. I wouldn't call them a revolutionary leap.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 12:57 AM
Yep. I've got heaps of emails from folks saying stuff like "I have 29 sites hosted with [hosting company] and I am paying about $200/mth. Are you saying that I can host them all in your [bulk reseller plan] for only $35/mth ??" It's hard for some folks to get their head around, but once they do, they rarely go back.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 01:00 AM
Just be careful throwing around that word "soon".
Posted by Rochen, 08-17-2002, 01:01 AM
Of course, of course, how could I forget, thanks for reminding me Bob
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 01:11 AM
Hard to discuss something with someone pretty well wrapped up in their own flag. The condescension doesn't help. Too bad, really, as I was wondering exactly what running a reseller has to do or what they need so much handholding on and can't do for themselves. More confirmation for my theory about WHT: here, it's more likely to be all about the price instead of the other things that go along with hosting anywhere. Funny, that, since we've been considering raising our reseller plan pricing to try and stem the number of resellers we get in any given month - which parallels increasing growth in regular hosting, as it happens. Of course, that didn't work when the price was higher before.....and we have yet another reseller coming from a bulk style host, bringing 18 domains along. So, the only thing known at this point is that nobody - not you, not me - knows which segment is growing faster. And in truth, what difference does it make? Either type is not "better" than the other. One is not uninformed because they choose one over the other. One is only uninformed when they do not properly investigate the upstream and have a proper business plan in place. We've all seen enough of that around here, I'd imagine.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 01:20 AM
I am simply stating an opinion. Having a discussion. Sorry if I appear "wrapped up in their own flag". Where is this condescension? Please be specific. Folks from WHT are exposed to more options etc. They're more aware [educated] of what's available in the market due to the large number of hosts that frequent here. They seek the bulk style reseller plans because they get a better deal. Simple. Good for you.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 01:30 AM
I missed your edit. And we had 2 yesterday back the other way. What's your point? Both styles of reseller are good. For someone wanting to build a hosting business, then a bulk style account would be a better choice [IMO] for them. Preferably one with WHM/Cpanel where they can admin their domains themselves and get ready for a dedicated server, which is the next step... Yeah.
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 01:43 AM
Perhaps read that in context instead of snipping it off. It means, as I have stated, that it's often about more than price. Saying that you "pity those folks who are less informed" is not exactly the height of good taste. More people don't visit WHT than do, and I'm sure most don't feel any less educated about their choices than people who do come to WHT. I would not call WHT a bastion of people any better educated about hosting in general than the population at large. In fact, some display an astonishing naivete about hosting. They (resellers) getting a better deal does not necessarily equate to indicating that one certain type of plan is somehow better than the other, or that one is growing faster than the other, or that they are both growing at the same rate. You don't know the answer to that. Neither do I. I'm not, as you are, pronouncing either as "dying fast" or that hosts offering one or the other are "in for a rough ride". You don't know that. Neither do I. Some things that are excellent for the client are downright disastrous for the host - one need only look at the wealth of Cyberwings threads to see it. Hosting is about more than just pricing. You should reserve your pity for those who don't or won't understand that. BTW, I would still like to know what you think resellers can't do without running off to their hosts just because of what type of reseller plan they've chosen. Last edited by Annette; 08-17-2002 at 01:49 AM.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 01:55 AM
Ok, where do we start with this one? Just list all the functions of the Reseller's WHM and that'll be a good start. This is a useless conversation. You're defending your reseller business model while I'm flying the flag for the type of reseller plan that we and many other hosts offer. Remember, we're talking personal opinions here, not established universal laws of the universe.
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 02:06 AM
Uh, no - I'm not defending anything, considering that we've toyed with offering the bulk type accounts ourselves. In fact, unlike some people, I've not made any pronouncements whatsoever on the state of the state without any evidentiary offerings, or said that some fish in the ocean is dying just because I say so. I was, however, making a point about hosting being more than just pricing - something I fervently wish more people would grasp before this industry really goes down the toilet. I was just hoping to share with our resellers all the things they do on a daily basis that you say they can't do without running off to us simply because they chose one type of reseller plan over another. But if you can't answer it, you can't answer it. No problem.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:09 AM
I answered it. You just ignored the answer. Can you offer all the functions like in the reseller's WHM? Can they instantly add new domains, edit DNS Zones, MX records, change disk space and data transfer usages for domains and stuff like that?
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 02:11 AM
Ignored what? We use WHM on our servers. Why wouldn't they be able to do these things themselves? What exactly does this have to do with the type of reseller plan they choose?
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:13 AM
So your resellers get WHM where they setup their own domains inside their disk space and data transfer limitations?
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 02:19 AM
Obviously they do not set up domains based on their own disk limitations, since as you know, we do not offer that type of reseller plan. You asked if resellers could add new domains. They can. Edit DNS zones? Sure. Edit MX records? Of course. They can also reset passwords. Terminate accounts. And so on. All the things that most people will be doing in day to life as a host. I'm genuinely confused here. What is it that you think they can't do based solely on the type of reseller plan they choose besides the specific function reserved for the bulk type - something you haven't mentioned until just now?
Posted by Jedito, 08-17-2002, 02:20 AM
Aussie Bob Take in mind that with the "discount reseller type" resellers get a lot more of space and bandwidth in each plan. Ex: We have a reseller who bought 3 of our 1000 MB Plan, if he were bought 3 bulk resellers plans with that features, here were paid 2-3 times more than what he's paying to get that amount of space and bandwidth.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:25 AM
I'm confused as well. So, they don't use WHM but your own reseller panel that is performs functions for them like editing DNS Zone etc? But if they do use WHM, then how do you bill per domain? Do you have a demo of your reseller control panel that I could see? You asked what they can't do - well for one thing, they can't oversell like someone with a bulk reseller plan can do. [I know, I know - no arguments about the evils of overselling please.] This is a huge benefit to resellers and folks starting their own hosting businesses.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:26 AM
True.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:33 AM
You seemed to overlook my working of "IMO". [In my Opinion] - I'm expressing an opinion here which I have clearly quantified in the beginning with the above statement. Unlike others, I know that my opinions don't form the underlying foundations for univeral truths. Only the arrogant can claim that their opinions are "right" and other people's opinions are wrong, IMO.
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 02:35 AM
They use WHM, all right. Some better than others. Billing per domain is really just a matter of having a system, just as it is for our regular hosting or dedicated clients. We take an extra step and give resellers detailed invoicing for their account with all their associated packages correlated with domain names, but I know others who do a simple tally (x of plan 1, y of plan 2, etc). Even if we didn't do it our way, a smallish host could just list reseller domains from the server WHM and count them up. I don't imagine that would scale very well, and I'd hate to have to do that with all of our boxes. That's a separate issue from cp functionality, though.
Posted by BeDifferentSolutions, 08-17-2002, 02:37 AM
People are so stuck in a box that live at WHT. I have been in this business for years and never heard of any of these guys until I came here. I will every once in a while see an MC Host ad, or a few others, but these guys do not offer anything above what the majority of other host now offer. Plus I never see these guys at trade shows I am at. Sorry if some one takes offense, but why think they are the leaders in the industry? Who says? WHT? Visit other locations. See their names? C-I-Host has like some 30,000 resellers (Actually I am sure many more by now). Look at their plans and reseller growth. They have discount and pay per use plans. Also, they don't have to advertise with some adjective like "30,000 *large* host" either. (What the hell is a large anyway???? Someone paying $35 for hosting is now a large host ). The point is, sure these guys are great WHT host. But broaden your horizons and don't worry about the competition. There are TONS of customers for everyone. Annette, you made some excellent points. You can see experience in your words.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:38 AM
Thanks. Would you ever consider just giving your clients "X" amount of disk space and "X' amount of data transfer and charge them for it as a one package?
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 02:38 AM
Yes, I did. My apologies. Good. I was starting to get a bit worried, having been around AWW long before this place - I thought perhaps I had been mistaken about the levels of intelligent disagreement, but see that was unfounded. I still don't like your uninformed comment, though, so there.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-17-2002, 02:41 AM
VPS, instant backup, etc. isn't revolutionary, agreed. But back when the bulk style reseller plans started, nobody thought about it before either. There's still a few major things that all hosting companies seem to overlook. You know you want to get into my brain, Rob!
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:41 AM
Are you referring to mchost's ad currently rotating here at WHT with the "2000 large hosting companies" ad copy?
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:47 AM
I don't get personal. I don't mind if the discussion gets a bit rough. You hold your ground well. I like that. But then again, you're a women, so that's what's expected. [humour] I actually got some good insight that I didn't have before with our discussion and I am better for it. Discussion is good - debate is good. I still believe that the bulk style reseller account is the way of the future, but as I said, that's my opinion. hehe. That's quite alright. I'll live.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-17-2002, 02:48 AM
You've got an excellent point there. I don't see how 1 forum can be the entire marketing area for a hosting company. Yes, we do have quite a few clients that signed up with us through WHT, but it is less than 15% of our total client base. But also, i wouldn't post things about any company unless i had the straight facts and figures from their client database.
Posted by BeDifferentSolutions, 08-17-2002, 02:49 AM
I will give you that. You certainly were a founding member of the *low* cost reseller bulk plans. Many people were hitting it at the $99 level with RAQ2s, etc... Yes. Plus a few others. I have seen a few places advertise thatthey host "large" host.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:51 AM
Already been there Marc. I took the group tour. BTW, buy the red BMW.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-17-2002, 02:54 AM
You were close with the BMW, but the color would be blue BMWs look terrible in red, Ferrari's look great in red though. Might want to open a new thread about the cars.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 02:54 AM
You could expand that out to apply to everyone and the circle that they move in etc. I think we're all guilty of thinking reality is based on our own experiences etc. IMO, there is no such thing as a "reality".
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 03:00 AM
hehe. Have fun with your blue Z3 then.
Posted by BeDifferentSolutions, 08-17-2002, 03:01 AM
The funny thing is that many people do not realize there is more out there. They need Christopher Columbus. I have been coming here for going on 2 years. This is the only place I post as UmbillyCord. I frequent about 20 other places as either my company or other usernames. The point is that (any many of you can agree), WHT locks people into a box. WHT is a small potatoes! Great place. Love it. But it is not the "Litmus Paper" to judge success in our industry. Blah Blah Blah....
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 03:04 AM
and what an industry it is too.
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 03:41 AM
We have done this for rather specialized accounts. The idea is of course not to be completely inflexible but rather work out something that suits the need of both client and business model. To expand that - as I can guess this is where you are leading - to bulk type plans does not fit that business model, nor does it strike me as a sustainable one. I base this on what I think, combined with what I know and a broader look around the industry outside WHT (as WHT lends itself to a particular type of microeconomics and is simply not very useful as a good research tool in that manner). In my opinion, the bulk type plans work much more in favor of the client than the host (based strictly on the numbers, since that always seems to be the focal point here), which itself leads to some problematic questions about the upstream host managing to stay afloat. The per use works in favor of both. The hybrid type, where resellers buy a block of space and pay for each domain, works entirely in the host's favor. The first does not lend itself to the perception of stability in my opinion, again based on the numbers. The second and third do, hence the middle road is what we chose. If I thought for an instant the first was a more viable, sustainable business model, we would be doing that instead. Maybe it will work for MCHost. Maybe not. Who's to say what the future will hold? I'm women? Holy cow. I don't think I could stand more than one of me. I know some other people feel the same way.
Posted by mdrussell, 08-17-2002, 03:51 AM
WHT certainly is a box, and there is plenty of industry out there not contained in this box. WHT does, however, provide an "easy" option for people looking at entering the hosting industry, they can find suppliers, customers and advice all at one place. I know we gained quite a good proportion of our customers through WHT and similar forums, and only for the past few months when we have grown have we actually advertised on a wider basis. I think the fact that we, and I'm sure some others, haven't visited trade shows if that we have been content to grow at a steady rate, and trade shows can come later. I agree with your point on there are plenty of customers around for everyone - this is something a lot of people overlook. Matt
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 04:00 AM
I was actually going to post something like this, but people tend to get their knickers in a twist... I agree with your points there. I'd never heard of most of the companies who are represented here until I actually started hanging around here. With the possible exception of the visit from pair or Deb's appearances (based on the longevity and retention rate of FQ), I wouldn't term any regular here a "key player" in the market, including us - unless that meant name recognition or the current flavor here at WHT, in which case the key player changes every month or two. Thanks. It's very kind of you to say so.
Posted by chrisb, 08-17-2002, 04:06 AM
Annette made some very good points. There are many good reasons why selling non-bulk plans may be better. I'd just re-iterate... 1. Some people may not have $20 or more a month, but may have $5 to purchase a plan as needed. 2. You are usually more assured that ALL of the bandwidth is actually available for use with a non-bulk plan I'm sure PaulL could probably add a few more good reasons.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 05:11 AM
How long do they have to be running until you can say that the reseller model has worked? IMO, I'd say it has already worked. I can speak from personal experience too. It works well for us. We're happy [cashflow positive, debt free and profitable] - clients are happy [they save money] - the servers are happy [low loads, server integrity intact etc] too. It's an exciting section of the hosting industry and one that IMO will only grow, grow and grow.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 05:17 AM
Agreed. Depends if the host has oversold the box. But data transfer [unlike disk space] is practically unlimited [you can get as much as you like really] but I'd just be worried of loads on the server if you're pushing too much through it.... Most probably.
Posted by Steve-PWH, 08-17-2002, 07:11 AM
2 is a dam good point -> Overselling is playing with matches: Most of the time you will got away from it but one day you will get burnt bad. With the old resellers from VO the next to top package allows 15GB of transfer. I had a recent enquiry from somone whating at least the 15gb of bandwidth that he could use (ie not oversold) -> To plans like that on most of the resellers I have seen would eat up all the bandwidth supplied and cost $35-40 per month while two plans form old VO would be $20 per month Bulk resellers would seen to be best with low bandwidth clients and plan resellers with others. I am quite glad I can use both now on VO
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 09:07 AM
Longer than a year, that's for particular. If you're happy with it, more power to you. I've yet to find any very large, established host who has been around for 3+ years offering a straight bulk type plan (versus offering VPS). Many don't offer reseller plans at all. pair, Burlee, FQ, CIH, CT, Jumpline, etc., all use a per use plan or (in the case of CIH) a hybrid. Verio offers VPS plans that are similar to bulk type, but aren't exactly the same thing - and at a much higher price. Maybe we'll see a shift to the pure bulk plan from the major hosts in the industry, but based on the economics of such an offering, I doubt it. It's not an approach that lends itself to moving beyond the small-midlevel range, in my opinion (and with all due respect to MCHost, I have to agree with Billy on his assessment of the wording of those ads).
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 09:24 AM
I'd say the bigger firms will be the last to move. It's interesting times when almost everything is up for grabs and nothing stays still. It'll be interesting to see how things evolve in the next 5 years. Who knows what hosting will look like in 5 years. It's an exciting industry though and an exciting thought to think where our businesses will be in 5 years. There's good demand out there for the bulk reseller type plan. And as long as that demand is strong, companies will supply that demand. IMO, this demand will only keep growing. I don't understand the wording at all.
Posted by Annette, 08-17-2002, 10:23 AM
Move from a revenue model that offers anywhere from 10-40% higher return? I think it unlikely, but I guess we'll see. We'll all be sitting around, gumming our food, talking about the old days of hosting, the fly-by-night hosts who passed through, and cursing out the young whippersnappers who are just coming in to the business. It could use a proofreading, certainly. I think I have a problem with the same things Billy did.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 10:42 AM
I did say the "last to move". Yes, I imagine I'll be some old synical man at a massive 38 years of age arguing with those folks wrapped up in their own flags. hehe. What goes around, comes around. Just replace the word "large" with "small"
Posted by Perfecthost, 08-17-2002, 01:33 PM
HEY!!!! Watch that, Bob! That's only 4 years away for me! Bulk reselling has been tried before. About 3 years ago, Besthost1 took $250 off us (didn't know about charge-backs, then) for a bulk reseller package. It was called a "Virtual Server" then. It fell out of favor as the "per account/as needed" program became popular. Now, I think they are offering some other type of bulk reseller thing. What's my point? There is a tendency, like history, to repeat. Bulk reselling is actually not a new thing. It has failed before. I am not saying it will fail again. In fact, I hope it does not, as we have resellers on both types of plans. It is my feeling that either type can be successful, but the success will be dependent on the host offering the reseller program...not on what is the "in" thing or what is considered "old". Success is based on the host's business practices, reliability, up-stream providers, etc. -Lamar
Posted by sharkman, 08-17-2002, 01:36 PM
QUOTE]Originally posted by Aussie Bob [B] $20/mth is "cash sitting around" ? Heck, you can get WHM/CPanel for $10/mth these days. So, money is no object anymore. Where can you get cpanel for $10/month?
Posted by Jedito, 08-17-2002, 01:44 PM
Actually, DonHost has been selling bulk reseller plans for a long time
Posted by BeDifferentSolutions, 08-17-2002, 02:17 PM
When have I cared? I know some of what I say pisses people off, but I also know a lot of what I say is true. My life here is a self-profiling prophesy anyway. I was voted "most likely to not be liked at WHT" during my high school graduation.
Posted by chrisb, 08-17-2002, 02:37 PM
LOL@BillyCord! I was voted the "Quietest" in my senior class. Boy, have I done a 360 degree turn! It really sounds to me like Annette knows what she's talking about, and has done her homework... and I rarely agree with women; but her arguments are too intelligent not to. I interpret her to be saying that it's all about having a "cushion" to survive. The single acct business model provides that better. It would be more difficult to charge high costs for a bulk reseller plan and remain competitive. A big enough "cushion" is also important for a backup plan if your bandwidth provider or data center fails. What happens if one of those fail, and you are forced to go with a provider that is more expensive? I see a bit of this problem with MCHost right now.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-17-2002, 02:41 PM
We have contracts with backup data centers at the same upstream bandwidth pricing as our current one and we can move all servers within hours. I don't see any problems
Posted by Jedito, 08-17-2002, 02:46 PM
I think that you mean 180 degree turn , or you'll point to the same direction.
Posted by chrisb, 08-17-2002, 02:48 PM
Yeah, thanks Jedito.
Posted by chrisb, 08-17-2002, 02:55 PM
What happens if the bandwidth providers raise their costs? How long are the contracts valid for? What happens if they go out of business, and you're forced to find even another bandwidth provider? Of course, you can raise your costs, but you risk losing customers when you do that. Seems better to me to have a good "cushion" built-in from the start. Of course, as Annette has already stated, it all boils down to your business plan and model. That said, it appears that the host selling non-bulk accounts has a better chance of survival. Only time will tell whether I am right or wrong. PS Interesting discussion, btw. I rarely put IMO, because most everything I say is my opinion.
Posted by chrisb, 08-17-2002, 03:04 PM
Just thinking about VO's new offering of bulk plans, in addition to their single acct reseller plans... It seems to me that adding the bulk reseller plans would hurt their present business model with the single reseller accts, and deflate the cushion which is vital. It would be interesting in a month or so, for VO to let us know how sales stack up for them, bulk vs non-bulk. And also, how profits stack up, one vs. the other.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 06:26 PM
What's this got to do with what type of reseller plan a host offers? Any host can lose their upstream providers. Not just us reseller hosts. And what's this cushion crap?? Most single domain hosts have their servers as full as possible anyways to maximise revenues and maintain profitability. At the end of the day, it's about the loads on the server and the reveune that the server generates. It all comes down to $$$$$.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 06:33 PM
Yes, this is a good "speculative" type conversation. We're not dealing with FACTS here. The bulk reseller business from a cashflow standpoint [I'm into cashflows bigtime] is a winner. "X" amount of accounts per server that generate "X" amount of revenue. I'd say there's probably more money in the single domain accounts and you could have 500 accounts per server, easy. It all comes down to money/cashflow and server loads. We serve a different market than the single domain hosts. Our market is much smaller, but there's a great market there and as awareness of our products grows, so does the market. It's not a product for everyone. It's a niche in the hosting world that has demand and thus the demand is met by suppliers.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 06:35 PM
Just take a stroll in the advertising forums. There are plenty of hosts that will do WHM/CPanel for $10/mth. You'll probably only get 2GB data transfer/mth etc, but you can still get it.
Posted by Rochen, 08-17-2002, 06:43 PM
I think there is a little confusion here. I think what he meant Bob, was could he get the CPanel license for $10, not an account using CPanel
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-17-2002, 06:45 PM
No. I said - And we're talking about reseller accounts here too.
Posted by TheMMIz, 08-17-2002, 09:07 PM
Bob, As I get waaaay off topic, I got an WHM/CPanel account with 100 MB of space and 2 Gigs of xfer for $2 a month from the REQUESTS section, and had multiple offers, you should have no problem with $10 Getting back to things, I think its great that VO, such a stable and solid company, has branched out, I wish them the best of luck.
Posted by Alan - Vox, 08-17-2002, 10:42 PM
2/month reseller accounts, that almost free lol
Posted by NelsonT, 08-18-2002, 04:17 AM
I'm glad to see so many webhosting providers join to discuss the bulk-type reselling. I lean a lot from this thread, thanks. As Jedito said, bulk reseller is not a new thing. But why bulk reseller got so popular these days? I think everyone want to copy the big success of McHost, by getting a cheap server, overselling the bandwidth, then growing up to be a big company as McHost did last year. To me, bulk-reseller is just a business strategy, but the major factor of success of McHost coming from their support efforts. They provided very good support to reseller with such low price, and they're also strong in developing some php modules for customers, and even the control panel. I behave like an end-customer not a reseller even I have reseller account with both SplashHost and McHost. I play fun with these accounts, but if my friends ask me where to signup account, I still direct them to Host Matters and VO. I don't want to argue who's the best, the customers will tell me. As I guess from my experiences, most resellers with nowadays popular bulk-style reselling account are not a real website developer/reseller, they do reselling as part-time job or just for fun. I have registered many (about 20+) domains, so I need the reseller account for my own use. But for a normal business type account, I suggest to use the pre-made packages from the your trusted hosting company. Let the upstream provider take the risk of overselling space and bandwidth, not the reseller itself, that's the reason I believe the old-type reselling still hot and won't die. I saw the trend turn from CPanel hosting to Bulk-type reselling, and now maybe the mixed Windows and Linux Bulk-type reselling like MatrixReseller do. Hosting trend is affected by many important factors: cheap bandwidth (cogent, yipe), cheap server (dv2, rackshack, nocster), reliable NOC (nac, VO, internap), hosting control panel (Cpanel, H-Sphere, Ensim, plesk). Comparing to the above, reselling is still not the dominant factor in the business. My 2cents, and sorry for my poor English. Last edited by NelsonT; 08-18-2002 at 04:25 AM.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 08:50 AM
It's a niche in the market like any other niche. There's a demand for it and there's those who supply this demand. Not too sure what overselling cheap server has got to do with it. Single domain hosts can oversell just the same, if they choose to. Of course not and we're glad about that. It's a fast growing sector of the market. I don't think anyone knows figures worldwide etc, but this market niche is growing and IMO will continue to grow at a good rate. Plenty of fish in the ocean for those good and honest suppliers.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 09:09 AM
I don't believe it is fast growing Bob, or it would be up there by now. I posted to WHT over 12 months ago that there was no real US equivalent to Donhost other than DPN. A few have had a good go at it since then, but nothing to dent to industry. We proposed reseller accounts to about 20 of our bigger clients this year, and none were interested. These are people that have been with us for a few years, and the general reply was "why would I want to have to try and manage all of that myself". In the six months or so we've offered reseller accounts, 6 have thanked us for the leg up and moved onto their own servers now (with or without our management services). Heck, we wouldn't lose that many normal hosting accounts in 12 months. Rather than the reseller level remaining a clear aspect, it is being rolled into $10/mth unlimited domain accounts that will only result in high server loads and unhappy clients (IMO) that no serious site owner would ever consider. And I believe worse for those providers is, that they wont get *any* serious site owners giving them a second glance if that's their main/predominant offering. I don't see it as a niche anymore Bob. It's a marketing spin. It's a very short lived stepping stone for any serious newcomer to the industry, and/or a bargain basement way for clients with a bucketload of domains to get them online with a minimum of fuss. More people have come unstuck with it this year alone, through lack of communication and stability through their provider, instead of demanding and being prepared to pay for a decent service. Give it 12 months and we'll probably see the complete demise of resellers in the sense of those using reseller service providers for onselling hosting. Cheers Gary
Posted by edb49, 08-18-2002, 09:23 AM
I don't agree, I think resellers are here to stay for the personal service they can offer. It's also a great way for small companies to reap the economies of scale that a large host can offer. Do you see the resellers for Enom going under? It's basically the same situation on a smaller scale with one main supplier. Some will, yes, but the whole concept won't.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 09:30 AM
Time will tell I guess. I've placed my bet. Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 09:47 AM
As I said above, noone can really tell about growth etc. There's no measurement that can be applied. That's why this thread is speculative and based around opinions etc...and that's good. Hmmmm, that depends on how much resources a $10/mth account allows someone to use. We used to have them and they came with 2GB data transfer/mth. They're very server friendly as for loads etc. It's far better than selling $10/mth accounts with 20GB data transfer with single domain hosting. There's a spin and propaganda out there that servers with reseller accounts suffer high loads and are unstable. What crap. It is indeed a niche just like the "Multiple Domain" niche. It's also a great stepping stone to your own server and that's good. We have several clients who'll be leaving us to get their own server. I'm advising them which provider to go through etc. It's a good thing - it's their business growing and I had a part in that growth. Again, that has nothing to do with hosts who offer bulk reseller plans. That could apply to anyone with bad suppliers etc. I'm not sure how this is indicativce of the bulk reseller market. It seems that you're saying folks will more than likely receive bad service with server instability and poor customer service of they choose a bulk reseller host. This is totally dependant on the provider in question and can't be generalised like that. I doubt that at all. That sounds like wishful thinking. The business model works - clients are happy - servers are happy. It's afterall, just leasing a portion of a server and utilising the shared resources that you have available for your own use. The next step is your own server. I'd like to see VPS more on the bulk reseller platform. That would create a more stable platform. I know hosts who have 500+ accounts per server and most of those accounts they're promised 5 to 10GB data transfer/mth. Now there's a high risk server. Our business is built on this market niche and is growing very nicely. It's a great place to be. Why this growth would suddedly stop or reverse is beyond comprehension or the laws of the universe. There's not a week that doesn't go by when I don't get emails from folks that say they love this approach to having all their domains in the 1 interface and they save money by doing so. Our market has always been the multiple domain market and it's a good area. I remember having similar conversations 12mths ago along these lines and folks were saying similar to what you said about "give it 12mths" etc. Well, 12 mths is up and it's still around and it aint going anywhere baby!! Ok, we'll give it another 12mths. *bookmarks thread* Last edited by Aussie Bob; 08-18-2002 at 09:56 AM.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 10:24 AM
12 months ago this idea was receiving comments like "i think the 'hot' thing nowadays is letting clients completely customize their businesses' and "a few hosts that have siezed the opportunity of offering resellers an ability of making their own plans". Nobody was knocking it, and I don't ever recall anyone ever saying it would fail back then. I made that comment up above because I was surprised more weren't already firmly into it. It's my opinion now though, that just the last 6 to 9 months have ruled out the possibility that it (read: cheap, unlimited domain reseller accounts with hosts providing anonymous services to a wider and more educated target audience) will still be a driving force 12 months from now. But, I'm always happy to revisit my comments if you're here next year. Cheers Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 11:04 AM
I hope we're both still here Gary. And being 100% debt free, cashflow positive with good cash reserves in the bank and a business that's growing nicely makes it all the more possible. [edit] fixed spelling mistake Last edited by Aussie Bob; 08-18-2002 at 11:47 AM.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 11:29 AM
Yep, we'll be here. Gary
Posted by Annette, 08-18-2002, 01:23 PM
Catching up.... Regarding "cushions": that isn't quite what I meant. There are simply very real prices associated with hosting, which many people tend to forget when they post requests for 100 gig transfer for $25/month. The fact is that a properly loaded machine based on the single domain method is just more profitable than one sliced into the bulk type and allows for a particular level of growth and more infrastructure support than the other method might. Obviously, there is room for both types in this world, as there are and always will be more people looking for hosts than there actually are hosts available. Not necessarily, although of course I don't agree with selling 20G of transfer for $10. As you have pointed out, bandwidth is an easy matter to deal with, since you just have to pay for the use of it. Disk limitations, however, are not so easily overcome. And we're all interested in cash flow, remaining debt-free, etc. I think that's the third time you've mentioned that. I disagree with Gary in the sense that I do not believe resellers will vanish or even decline. Many people simply do not have the inclination or knowledge to run their own servers and are happy to let someone else deal with that while taking care of their business. I'm not entirely convinced that reselling has ever really been a driving force, myself. We decided long ago that we did not want to be in a position where the majority of our business was drawn from resellers rather than individual clients. Luckily, we have an outstanding mixture of both plus dedicated clients, so our portfolio is nicely diversified (but not as wild a ride as the stock market here in the US ).
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 01:37 PM
Interesting times ahead, that's for sure. Gary
Posted by chrisb, 08-18-2002, 03:31 PM
Bob, you say your marketing niche is unique because it is multiple domains. I honestly don't see much difference between "multiple domains" and "bulk reseller" accounts. Sounds like a marketing spin to me. Editor: some interesting food for thought.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 05:51 PM
Yep. Coming from the building industry, the hosting world is much more fun to be apart of. Each morning when I wake up, I jump out of bed and am so eager to get back to work. It's great when you make $$$$$$ doing the thing that you love.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 06:03 PM
The difference is the type of client and their needs. The reseller client usually has their own hosting business that they're wanting to get off the ground. Rather than starting with a dedicated server, they start with a reseller account. That type of client would make up about 20% of our client base. Most of our clients are webmasters with 5 or 6 sites of their own that they just want to host under 1 account to save money. They might have been paying $10/mth per site before and now they can roll their sites into the 1 $20/mth payment. They can also add more sites as long as they keep within their specified disk space and data transfer usages. These sites are low usage type sites and are very easy on the servers. A quick example of this would be 1 of our servers with 300+ sites on it and last month it did only 30GB data transfer. There's a huge market out there for these kinds of sites that don't use a lot of resources. I would say that most sites on the net would be flat out pushing 200 to 500MB/mth. There's also the clients who are web developers. They love the bulk style reseller accounts as they can host their own sites for their clients. Much like running your own server, without the worries. We have a fair few web developers too. You'll find that the web developers who service the small business market, build sites that use very little in server resources. Several years ago, I built sites for local small businesses. They got very little traffic but the business owners just wanted a url to add to their business cards etc. These sites work great from a bulk reseller type account. Our clients who are web developers who service this sector, save a lot of money in comparison to when they were paying for their client's hosting, 1 account at a time. Some of our clients have their own personal sites + they host sites for their friends too. There's definently 2 different types of clients who benefit from the bulk reseller type account. But the bulk reseller accounts don't work for everyone though, but for the clients they work for, they work very well. We used to do quite well from Google under the keywords - "host multiple domains". But we've since kept all spiders away so as to protect our resellers anonymity etc. So, you've got the client that wants to host a bunch of their own sites [Multiple domain client] and then you've got the client using the bulk reseller plans as the supply for their hosting business. [Reseller client] So to answer your question, it's far from "marketing spin". Last edited by Aussie Bob; 08-18-2002 at 06:08 PM.
Posted by page-zone, 08-18-2002, 06:14 PM
I think the first month I was with MCHost I made about $2000 on a $35.00 a month reseller plan. Many were yearly plans but many were monthly as well. The months prior to MCHost I was trying to mark up someone elses package, and made nothing, actually worse than "nothing" I lost about $400 in the prices of setting up shop. I'm past MCHost now but continue to have clients on three of their servers because it's much easier paying the $105 a month than it is to move all of them. My opinion - buying in bulk, MCHost style beats any reselling scheme hands down.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 08:43 PM
It's marketing spin Bob, whichever way you look at it. Surely these webmasters you speak of realise that instead of paying $10/mth for peak performance alongside say, 199 other domains on a well maintained server, that they are about to risk throwing their work into a huge unknown. I know that our average site owner is never going to believe that all of a sudden we have worked out a way to drastically cut their prices without introducing some other risks. I've read your reasoning that it has nothing to do with numbers. That any one site can bring a server to its knees. That's obvious. What we're doing with these reseller boxes is raising the odds *tenfold* that it can happen, and at the same time making it harder to track and manage because we have another level to consider. You've seen the effects of bombing up servers with hundreds of domains. You've seen the effects of inexperienced operators stuffing a server with whatever will turn them over a dollar. Load averages are through the roof, and diskspace is red-lining more often than not. Not to mention the poor uptime. It's not just a fluke that these problems are more prominent in those reseller environments. It's a shaky model at best, and not one I believe will weather out the storm. So, ask me again next year. Cheers Gary
Posted by Annette, 08-18-2002, 10:15 PM
An excellent representation of why this type of plan completely favors the reseller, sometimes to the point of being detrimental to the host.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 10:19 PM
We'll glady agree to disagree on that one Gary. Do you have some hard data to backup your claim? If not, then please quantify your statement with an IMO so folks don't confuse your unsubstantiated opinions with fact. You're spinning that oversold servers with high loads are a natural part of the reselling industry. Again, do you have any hard evidence to backup that statement? Or this should be called just your opinion based from your experiences and your interactions? It's a deal!!
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-18-2002, 10:19 PM
sometimes being the operative word there.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-18-2002, 10:26 PM
Sure, but you know that can't be presented without naming names and slamming others, and that's not what I'm about. Yes this is all my own opinion Bob, but it's one based on quite a few years of experience not just a hopeful vision for the future. There's a big difference there. Why doesn't *everyone* eat at Sizzlers Bob? If the pricing (and only the pricing) determines that you must get more for your money at Sizzlers, surely everyone would go there. Doesn't work like that though. I could go over a hundred similar situations...but I'm sure you get the picture. Cheers Gary
Posted by chrisb, 08-18-2002, 10:52 PM
I understand all of that Bob. The point I was making is that most reseller accounts allow multiple domains so you can do the same thing with most of them that you can do with yours. You're just marketing it differently (and the different marketing is your niche), as a multiple-domain account, instead of calling it a reseller account. Thus, it's a marketing spin.
Posted by chrisb, 08-18-2002, 10:55 PM
Sorry, but I don't believe that.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:14 AM
We'll talk about this next year!!
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:16 AM
He did say some were yearly payments etc. Some yearly accounts could be several hundred dollars per account. We used to do yearly payments and the top plan was $450.00/yr. So it's possible, but whether you believe it or not, that's up to you.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 12:18 AM
I personally wont be sharing 'financial' information on the board, but we are not in the red Dammit, now I have done it, here comes Bob with his "Cash Flow IS King" lecture
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:20 AM
Why do you call it "marketing spin" for? It's just marketing and presenting a product in the best possible manner. Why must this be called "spin"?
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 12:24 AM
Folks, take a moment to review the first post, then look at this page, how off topic can we get. First off we are discussing Ventures Online's new product and now we are talking about Cash Flow and how a "Aussie" based hosting company is using "marketing spin" to make sales (j/k)
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:28 AM
Cashflow + low load servers is king!!
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 12:31 AM
You're right Rochen. We were discussing bulk accounts, but lost track that the thread was about VO. I wish VO luck with their new bulk plans. If anyone can make it work, they will.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 12:32 AM
I see the policy has been changed slightly
Posted by Annette, 08-19-2002, 12:33 AM
I should have left the qualifier out completely. Seriously.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 12:33 AM
I suspect the mods will be locking this one up soon...
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:34 AM
Yes good luck to VO in working this impossible business model that doesn't make money for anyone and won't be around in 12mths time. Yes, I am being fractionally sarcastic
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 12:37 AM
Inbetween all the supposition and specualtion [which is good], there's been some good and meaningful dialogue. We'll just have to wait and see what really happens over the next 2 to 5 years and see how these bulk reseller plans evolve.
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 12:39 AM
I don't know. I haven't seen a mod lately. I think they must've cut their hours.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 12:40 AM
Yeah (*takes note on calendar to see who was right*). Personally my vote goes with Bob on this one 700th Post
Posted by BeDifferentSolutions, 08-19-2002, 12:41 AM
LOL. I love it. Qualifiers will kill you everytime here at WHT.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 01:00 AM
I'm a bit curious if you think this business model doesn't work and yet you promote - "Host unlimited domains on our dedicated Reseller servers" at http://www.aussiehosts.com/resellers.html Why work this business model if you don't believe it's unsustainable? IE - will produce a cashflow positive and stable server. Crikey Gary, 19 bucks a month for 30,000MB of data transfer and you talk about unstable servers??
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 01:11 AM
I love it! One bloke giving another bloke a hard time. Got any mud-wrestling sheilas to put into this movie?
Posted by Walter, 08-19-2002, 01:20 AM
I couldn't agree more.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 01:22 AM
What "hard time"?
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 01:59 AM
Yes, we're having a go at it, and will have to wear the consequences if it goes to the wall. That's not to say that I think it will be around next year. The things we were doing 12 months ago wouldn't receive much attention today either. Cheers Gary
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 02:00 AM
No, nobody gives us a hard time about what we're doing other than ourselves. But the mud-wrestling...I could entertain that. Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 02:08 AM
This is discussion. Noone's giving anyone a hard time. I don't think anyone would pay to see to male aussies mud wrestling, Gary. That's a scarey thought indeed.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 02:23 AM
Yep, that was what I was saying. It's all just talk on here. Now I know you blokes out west do things a bit differently Bob...we were referring to *female* mud-wrestling. Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 02:28 AM
I can assure you Gary that I don't do anything "differently" than you chaps from the coast. That might not sound right.
Posted by labzone, 08-19-2002, 02:32 AM
I'm sure Ventures Online enjoys seeing this thread maintain at the top position while some of their competetors debate bulk reseller plans and issues not even related to the thread topic. I think it's funny how people do business sometimes. I'm not a reseller competetor so I'm just here watching the show.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 02:46 AM
Nothing wrong with spirited discussion. It's entirely on topic regarding the type of reseller plans that they launched too. Watch away.
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 02:49 AM
Well, I got bored with the movie and left for awhile to get some popcorn. I figured by now, AussieBob would have told us all the details about his cashflow plan... changes, projections, cost shrinkage, accts receivables, liabiities, assets, etc., etc. Yes, I should have said "having a go" instead of "hard time". I agree it was discussion.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 02:53 AM
Thank you.
Posted by labzone, 08-19-2002, 02:53 AM
Well some of the discussion is on topic and someone would be hard pressed to find useful information about the rollout of their new bulk reseller plans within this thread. Actually, I can care less what you choose to talk about. Like I said, I'm sure VO appreciates the exposure so chatter away.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 02:56 AM
We all do.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 02:59 AM
Yeah...must stop doing that. Gary
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 03:01 AM
Gee, this thread has got so long that for a minute there, I thought it was one of the dumb threads I started. Bob, what time do you have? It's 2:04 AM here.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 03:01 AM
At least we got some ontopic discussion in there. Better than usual. I must be slipping.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 03:02 AM
no, but you did have some of you usual input here Chris. It's 5:05pm here. 10 hours to go til I hit the hay.
Posted by chrisb, 08-19-2002, 05:14 AM
Hmmm... I just checked the ad forums, and noticed that out of the 4 threads for resellers that I checked that you (AussieBob) responded to 2 of them and made an offer. Nothing wrong with that. It just shows that you are going after reseller accts just like any other reseller, whether you call them "multiple domain accounts" or not. I just don't understand why you don't call them bulk reseller accounts because that's basically what they are. It's just semantics. When most people go looking for a host that allows multiple domains, I would think they would naturally know to look for a bulk reseller.
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-19-2002, 05:20 AM
I find it funny that 2 competitors are spending hours on discussing whether or not the business model works out, while the 3rd one may be investing this time in his business. Just an observation.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 05:31 AM
Could have used you about 3 pages ago, Kiwi. But I'm always up for some lively debate. BTW, according to the experts, your business will probably fail in about 12mths from now. Last edited by Aussie Bob; 08-19-2002 at 05:36 AM.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 05:34 AM
You can call them what you want. There's no real proper name for them. You can call them accounts that allow Multiple domain names. You could call them Bulk reseller accounts. They just allow multiple domains and I am flexible enough to offer this to both sections of the market. We did well from that keyword with Google [host multiple domains, multiple domain host] but are no longer getting indexed etc. You're beating up a strawman here Chris, but if you've got nothing else better to do....
Posted by Annette, 08-19-2002, 06:09 AM
Who are you referring to?
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 06:20 AM
Hours Marc? I'm afraid not. Besides, it pays to spend some time planning ahead for these things. Gary
Posted by Annette, 08-19-2002, 06:42 AM
I didn't think so, myself, Gary. It's not as if these threads take up any more time than other things that have come along or require that much time to skim past the fluff. I'd imagine that it's an even more amusing comment when you consider that the investment in business probably only refers to limited participation in this thread, given the average posts in any given day by particular parties. Wouldn't you agree?
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 07:44 AM
Err...I think so. Don't I? I don't really know where Marc was heading with that comment, but I'd hazzard a guess and day it was in the wrong direction. It's all part of the fun. Cheers Gary
Posted by Annette, 08-19-2002, 10:03 AM
I'm fairly sure where he was headed, actually. Bit of a cheap shot, when one should keep in mind glass houses and all that.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 10:55 AM
It would help if you changed these lines of code in your vB template
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 11:03 AM
No, you misunderstood me. We don't want to be indexed.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 11:04 AM
Hmm, well I must say, that is one different strategy you have there
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 11:12 AM
It's more to protect resellers etc. I'm sure you know why.
Posted by page-zone, 08-19-2002, 11:19 AM
Last night (3 pages ago) I was just about to reply that reliability on the reseller server is awesome, until my cell phone went off telling me Apache locked up and wouldn't restart. Just goes to show NEVER walk around boasting reliabilty because as soon as you do...
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 11:46 AM
Absolutely
Posted by page-zone, 08-19-2002, 12:40 PM
Actually, come to think of it I'm having NOTHING but problems with the reseller hosting scheme I'd have to say, if my competition is thinking of getting into it - RUN! -- RUN LIKE THE WIND! It's a terrible idea and will never fly! I give it 10 more days and anyone offering it will be bankrupt! So just don't do it. And anyone who is doing it and competing with me you better stop offering it immediately and send your customers to someone who is. (Just to put them out of business in 12 months of course)
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 08-19-2002, 02:41 PM
Cheap shot at? It was just an observation ...we're going for 11 pages on this whether or not bulk style reseller plans work out or not. Of course everyone has to decide themselves where to spend the time ...talking about it or making it work out. That was my point and my opinion
Posted by Annette, 08-19-2002, 03:02 PM
Oh, I wouldn't say that all of this is all about whether it works or not. Even the parts that are about it have pieces that aren't even serious. All of these long threads go off the rails at some point, As Gary said, it doesn't take hours and hours to post a few messages here and there in between things. [Edit]Hey, look! 11 pages! End of the line for me.[/Edit] Last edited by Annette; 08-19-2002 at 03:09 PM.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 06:28 PM
Some can talk about it, *and* make it work Marc. Cheers Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 06:49 PM
I still enjoyed your posts, even if I don't agree 100%. I learned something too.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 07:08 PM
You have to admit Bob, it'd be mighty boring around here if we were all in agreeance. Heck, some folks would have nothing to post about (ponders...). Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 07:39 PM
I like the friction. It's healthy for good spirited debate. It's a great way to learn and be challenged etc. But fractionally getting back on topic [whatever that was *waves at chrisb* ], IMO, the bulk reseller plans will evolve more into VPS or semi deicated servers from the platform they're on now. Harmonising the revenue from these servers and the stability of the server is the essential goal. VPS or semi-dedicateds will be more expensive, but more realiable etc. I see a huge market in the semi-dedicated servers. Someone ought to own the domain of Semidedicatedservers.com.
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-19-2002, 08:07 PM
It's been tossed around for a while now, and never really made an impact either though. A bit too gimmicky perhaps. Is there enough room for it between cost effective shared hosting and a cost effective dedicated server, from a hosted clients' point of view? Is there enough room from a provider/reseller point of view? I don't think so, given the cost range of a decent dedicated box nowadays. (we really ought to get out of VO's thread you know...I'll move this thread to OHT ) Cheers Gary
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-19-2002, 08:54 PM
It's touch and go, but I think it's doable. another discussion for another day then.
Posted by Rochen, 08-19-2002, 09:01 PM
Wonders how much longer this thread will go on **
Posted by akuo, 08-19-2002, 11:44 PM
Damnit Rob, I logged into OpenSRS and everything... Last edited by akuo; 08-20-2002 at 12:16 AM.
Posted by page-zone, 08-20-2002, 12:15 AM
I don't. That's a terrible idea. You take 4 people who are paying $80 a month you can guarantee each of those four are going to fill the server up to recoup that. I'd much rather have 40 people paying $20.00 a month and sticking a few mainly inactive domains up.
Posted by chrisb, 08-20-2002, 12:21 AM
What 3rd party are you speaking of? Interesting observation.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-20-2002, 12:21 AM
It'll work but that's a discussion for somewhere else.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-20-2002, 12:27 AM
I thought you were the third party but I was just guessing. Thought it was a "cryptic" post, and I never understand those kinds of things.
Posted by chrisb, 08-20-2002, 12:30 AM
Hey Bob, but I enjoy beating up on "straw men". About semi-dedicated boxes, I don't agree since the price of dedicated boxes is low now and keeps coming down. Whether you call your plans "bulk" or "multi-domain", my point was that they are basically the same, and that if "multi-domain" is your niche, you have no niche, except for how you market it. That said, I hope bulk reseller plans do work, and that's what I am looking for; but I have my doubts about them. ...and with that, I'll let you have the last word.
Posted by chrisb, 08-20-2002, 12:33 AM
Yep, I thought Marc was talking about me as the 3rd party... that's why I asked.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-20-2002, 12:42 AM
There's a model there that can work [IMO], it's just whether someone can sell it etc... Multi-domain, bulk reseller plans are a niche. Call them what you want etc. If someone emails me and says they want a bulk reseller plan, then I say we can provide that for you. If they say they want Multi-domain hosting, I say we can provide that for you. One has to be a tad bit flexible in today's competitive marketplace if one likes to eat and keep a roof over one's head. They are much less common than normal hosting and there is only a fraction of the demand for these types of plans, but there are also only a fraction of suppliers - so it's all relative. Market forces keep supply and demand in some form of balance [eventually....over time.....] The capitalist system works, maybe. IMO, just go straight to your own server. Thanks.
Posted by mdrussell, 08-20-2002, 04:28 AM
The semi-dedicated business model does work. You cannot compare a semi-dedicated offering to a cheap dedicated server. Semi-dedicated offerings are fully managed, ie the provider does all the server work for you, plus you receive a similar level of technical support to what you would receive on a virtual plan. Does RackShack offer this at $100 / month for their unmanaged, unsupported dedicated server? No. Does _InsertHostHere_ offer it for their $100 / month semi-dedicated server? Yes. If you are wanting to receive a similar level of service to what you would on a virtual plan, then you would be looking at RackSpace - who's costs are a fair bit higher than most semi-dedicated server offerings. Just my opinion - and no offence directed at RackShack by using them as the example here. Matt
Posted by AussieHosts, 08-20-2002, 05:02 AM
At least one of the more widely known virtual server providers lists "Application Installation and Support" as an option. I would hesitate to call semi-dedicated/virtual private servers "managed" out of the box. Cheers Gary
Posted by labzone, 08-20-2002, 06:15 AM
Maybe Ventures Online had too much exposure while this thread maintained a top position for the last few days. Looks like one of their servers recently got hacked. I guess sometimes no publicity is good publicity. http://www.venturesonline.com/forums...?threadid=4364 Last edited by labzone; 08-20-2002 at 06:21 AM.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 08-20-2002, 06:38 AM
That happened before this thread, from memory...
Posted by labzone, 08-20-2002, 07:06 AM
Nope. Thread started August 16th and the server was hacked on August 18th. Kinda suspicious how this would happen soon after the launch of their bulk reseller plans.