dathorn's discontinuance of mailman support

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Posted by collin, 10-22-2003, 01:57 AM
I was very satisfied with dathorn's service, features and pricing, but a few months ago, they discontinued mailman support, saying that it was dragging down their servers. They say that it is related to Cpanel. [i'm a new forum user so can't post url's...annoying. add an h-t-t-p-:-/-/ in front of these URLs] forums.dathorn.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2964&st=0 Now, two-way mailing lists have become very important to my customers and its a measure of my personal goodwill towards dathorn that I'm still with them and have been putting off the complaints while I look into alternatives. However, I haven't found any two-way mailing list solutions that can be installed as a reseller. I'm also starting to think that its not ethical/acceptable to remove an advertised feature, not provide any alternative, and not compensate in the pricing at all. I'm reluctant to change hosts again, but, I'm forced to ask these questions: 1) is there a general issue with mailman/cpanel such that all hosts have taken it off their system? 2) which reseller providers have comparable pricing plans, features, and mailman support? Their plans/features: dathorn.com/hostingplans.php
Posted by Jay H, 10-22-2003, 02:07 AM
Hi collin, There are several aspects of cPanel that are buggy or can create an unstable server environment for a certain host, features such as mailman should be looked at as only a bonus feature. You can install your own mailing list software to your account if you would like. By running a search on these forums and through this reseller section, you should be able to come up with several good providers, do your research on all of them and I think things will work out for you in the end.
Posted by beachtrader, 10-22-2003, 07:54 AM
One thing I do know is that a few weeks ago (probably around 3) cPanel did have some incompatability with Mailman. Basically, Mailman wouldn't function correctly. To the best of my knowledge these problems were fixed (at least the ones we were having on all of our servers) and people went on their merry way. Dathorn just might have had enough of dealing with all the problems with them. Understandable. As for others comparable to Dathorn, look around in this forum and you will literally see hundreds of providers.
Posted by foogee, 10-22-2003, 09:10 AM
It seems like Dathorn/Andrew is doing things for the benefit of the larger part of his user base. In an attempt to keep things running smoothly for the majority of customers it appears they are prepared to lose a few. Another issue which may see customer leave Dathorn is the introduction of phpsuexec; some customers are using some scripts ina way that is not compatible and so are talking about leaving. Whilst it is regretable than anyone would leave, I am pleased that Andrew is taking the approach he is. The more reliable and secure he can get the servers the better it is for me and my customers If CPanel have fixed the Mailman issues, as has been suggested, maybe Andrew can be encouraged to rethink his position on Mailman.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-22-2003, 09:40 AM
1) No, though there were some problems a while back, but that's why you shouldn't be doing automated updates. 2) I am not sure. Remember that Dathorn is allocation-based, while a lot of the companies out there are usage-based. Some of our clients use mojomail.
Posted by Adrian, 10-22-2003, 10:45 AM
Do you honestly believe that Dathorn should lower their price because of this? Dathorn are already a low-cost solution - you can't get much lower. I agree however, that perhaps they should have given more notice or helped source an alternative. Most hosts still offer mailman so I guess you will have to start looking for a new home
Posted by collin, 10-22-2003, 01:52 PM
I don't really expect a price break but something doesn't seem right if they can remove items from their feature list without any consequence or adjustment. I mean, let's say web-serving was removed from the list. Would that be ok too? or is removing mailing lists more ok just because its less popular? I do realize that Andrew did what he did for the "greater good," but wish that more effort had gone into providing alternatives, instead of just pulling a feature off and basically saying, "too bad, deal with it." And I was actually ok with that until I found that there wasn't really any scripts that I could install to do two-way mailing lists. [if anybody has suggestions let me know] Anyhow, I'll contact Andrew and see if he will reevaluate the mailman situation now that somebody has said that it is resolved with Cpanel.
Posted by ChrisTech, 10-22-2003, 02:17 PM
Urm...that really didn't make any sense. Anywho, if Andrew is the one protecting my sites to make sure they have the uptime/security they need, I am all for it. I have 2 accounts with Dathorn (cp08 & cp24) and haven't had any issues with them at all.
Posted by Hostmax-br, 10-22-2003, 02:35 PM
I agree that security is a major issue but sincerly Dathorn must take into consideration another solution for cases like that when the customer just *need* to have a two way mail list...
Posted by centrahost, 10-22-2003, 04:06 PM
Well said. Sounds to me like a good adjustment to keep things under control and plan for growth.
Posted by ChrisTech, 10-22-2003, 04:17 PM
Its been stated on the Dathorn forums that you can use http://tincan.co.uk/phplist as an alternative to MailMan. Looks pretty nice, even has Automated PDF creation. To ensure users can read the message regardless of mail reader, the message can be automatically converted to PDF and attached to the email. Which makes it something I might look into for a customer of where I work.
Posted by collin, 10-22-2003, 04:51 PM
i did look into phpList but it is mainly a send-only script with a web interface. as such, its good for announcements but list members can't reply. also, this usage model works for a few users, who have accounts on phpList, sending messages via the web to all the emails on a list. it doesn't work for random users, who don't have accounts on phpList, contacting the people on a list via email. additionally, people already know how to use email and use it regularly at work, home, etc. so they can use mailing lists as part of their established workflow. however, something like phpList would only get used by somebody who really, explicitly had a reason or task to go out of their way to log onto phpList, enter something, and send it out. for my situation, that would mean it wouldn't get used much at all.
Posted by collin, 10-22-2003, 05:03 PM
First off, I'm not criticising Andrew for protecting the sites. It's just that I need mailing list functionality. I accept that the reasons were valid at the time for him to make that decision. To clarify the part that didn't make sense to you. As an example, let's say WalMart offered a special subscription plan: 1 tube of toothpaste and 1 toothbrush per month for $10. You subscribe. Later, they remove the toothbrush from the plan, but still charge you $10/mon for just the toothpaste. Would anybody here be ok with that? I was just trying to explore the topic of whether providers can remove features from their plans without renegotiating with plan subscribers. Perhaps this is accounted for in the terms of service, so I put out the extreme case example of, let's say they took webserving off their feature list without renegotiating. I'm sure none of the customers would tolerate this, so why should mailing lists be any different? I'm not trying to make this a flamewar, just a search for solutions and to see if the Mailman problem was widespread and if all hosting providers had suddenly removed mailing lists from their feature lists because of these problems.
Posted by okihost, 10-22-2003, 05:18 PM
Do they offer fantastico? I know there is a mailing list script built into that, also alot of clients seem to enjoy mojomail. Regardless of what you use there should be some type of alternative for clients and I would think the most cost effective solution would be something like fantastico if they do not already have it.
Posted by artvision, 10-22-2003, 05:45 PM
Seems, that in Dathorn prefer to buy new servers, before to search the substitute for taken options from present clients!
Posted by Asverse, 10-22-2003, 08:53 PM
I agree that often for the better of a group, particular things have to be compromised on. I believe any company who is going to remove a feature that is used by anyone in that group (no matter if it's 1 person or 100%), there should be some effort into getting opinions from the group and also researching about alternative solutions for the lost feature. I believe not to long ago Dathorn was suspending all users suspected of using a particular type of FTP program (Was is CuteFTP or what?). Anyways, after going thru all that and banning (comparing it to removing a feature..by not letting users use that ftp program) users, it was eventually discovered that it wasn't that FTP client in the first place. It was a bug :/ I think more effort should have went into that decision. I could also compare this to cPanel's lack of regard for customer opinions/needs/wants, when they removed the beloved bluelagoon skin.
Posted by Derrick, 10-22-2003, 10:38 PM
Getting opinions isnt usually a viable option. Ever try to get your family to agree on 1 place to eat dinner? Now try to get 500 people to agree on a solution To bad stuff just didnt work out nice and easy all the time. Overall I imagine Dathorn is just trying to do whats best for all customers in general(ie keep the servers stable) Derrick
Posted by Aussie Bob, 10-22-2003, 11:53 PM
Yep.
Posted by The3bl, 10-23-2003, 12:37 AM
Ahh that is the great thing about web hosting if you do not like what your provider provides move to another host. If the provider is sick of dealing with issues related to a particular script he can remove it. I am sure he is doing what he feels is in the best interest of his company and the servers stabilty. That is a feature he no longers wants to offer. Your Wal Mart analogy only holds up if you had prepaid for a length of time or were bound by a contract. If it is month to month you are free to accept the changes or cancel your subscription. Just like my Visa card used to give me double air miles for every $ I spent, I was clocking up a few free overseas flights every year just paying for my servers and data center bills each month on it, then last month they sent me a notice they were capping the amount of miles I could earn in a year. So I got an Amex instead with no cap. It is called freedom to change.
Posted by idologicJeff, 10-23-2003, 12:43 AM
We seem to have no problems between Mailman's most recent version and CPanel, though I must admit Mailman can hog cpu cycles. Cheers Jeff
Posted by collin, 10-23-2003, 02:27 AM
I think this thread has gotten off track from what I intended, which was mainly to find out if the Mailman issue was consistent or widespreach such that all hosting providers had discontinued mailing lists, which seemed to be a standard feature everywhere the last time I shopped around. I guess from the responses that mailing lists can still be commonly found. That said, I don't really want to leave Dathorn. I'm too busy right now to shop for another provider and do a migration, and Andrew's service has earned enough loyalty to make me want to stay. However, I can't ignore the demand for mailing list functionality from my customers much longer. So, I suppose the most helpful focus right now would be on suggestions for alternative mailing list scripts with two-way functionality that are accessed primarily via email, not the web, and could be installed as a customer on dathorn.com. I'm not hopeful on this because if it existed, somebody on the dathron forums would have found it by now. Any suggestions? I'm also willing to listen to posts from competitive providers that have comparable pricing/features (including mailing lists) to Dathorn, if that is allowed here. Thanks.
Posted by Jay H, 10-23-2003, 02:35 AM
Hi Collin, Quotes from competitors is not allowed in this forum. I would suggest you begin your search for a new mailing list at http://cgi.resourceindex.com or http://php.resourceindex.com.
Posted by Hostmax-br, 10-23-2003, 06:12 AM
I had already look into some pages searching for an alternative to mailman but haven´t found any suitable. If anybody has any suggestions I would like to hear as well
Posted by okihost, 10-23-2003, 10:13 AM
I hear many good things about Mojomail which you might want to look into.
Posted by collin, 10-23-2003, 12:09 PM
I did take a look at Mojomail last night and it looked good, but again was a "send out from web" type of script, rather than two way. The two-way modification involves root access, so that is pretty much out for installation at dathorn. In fact, since Andrew has said that any procmail-like processing of mail is too great of a CPU load and will not be allowed (something I learned last night on the dathorn forums), I think that pretty much eliminates the possibility of any two way lists, unless somebody is much more clever than I am.
Posted by Adrian, 10-23-2003, 12:22 PM
It seems from your posts that the availability of two-mailing lists is very important to you, perhaps you should consider moving to a host who has mailman enabled, and who will commit to keeping it available
Posted by Hostmax-br, 10-23-2003, 12:23 PM
actually I must agree with collin. Since seting up a mail program needs a root, only Dathorn would be able to setup a script two way what is far away from happening.
Posted by Alex042, 10-23-2003, 12:55 PM
Looks like something else to add to my 'to do' list.
Posted by collin, 10-23-2003, 01:09 PM
yeah, i started the process of looking for a new host last night. anybody with suggestions can PM me. thanks all.
Posted by Hostmax-br, 10-23-2003, 02:38 PM
hey everyone... post it here... so everyone can see thy good suggestions about hosting companies
Posted by idologicJeff, 10-23-2003, 10:06 PM
If this thread is about Mailman's formerly well documented issues with CPanel - CPanel has resolved those issues. This is equally well documented. If this thread is about Dathorn's use of Mailman - you had better ask Andrew for the source of Dathorn's policies. Speculating, I would guess that since Andrew packs a ton of clients on a server (achieving lower prices) he doesn't like Mailman because Mailman can be a cpu hog, but again, ask him. Cheers Jeff Last edited by idologicJeff; 10-23-2003 at 10:33 PM.
Posted by ChrisTech, 10-23-2003, 11:08 PM
Packs a ton? I find that hard to believe.
Posted by Jay H, 10-23-2003, 11:11 PM
Like Vamp22, I find no supporting evidence of your claim that he packs his servers full.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 10-23-2003, 11:14 PM
He did say - "Speculating, I would guess". He qualified his comment as speculation and guessing. No need to produce "evidence of your claim".
Posted by Jay H, 10-23-2003, 11:16 PM
Ah, why thank you Aussie Bob for making that clearer.
Posted by idologicJeff, 10-23-2003, 11:26 PM
Indeed, I was speculating. Cheers Jeff And thank you Aussie Bob for noticing that
Posted by foogee, 10-24-2003, 06:40 AM
Looking at that sentence the writer is asserting that Andrew packs a ton of clients on a server. The speculation and guesswork in that sentence refers to whether or not Andrew likes Mailman's cpu hogging tendency. Of course if that wasn't the intended meaning it would probably have been better to use a different sentence As an alternative to Dathorn, STLHosing.com do similar packages and have a special deal for WHT members bringing the price down to close to Dathorn's. I haven't used them, but have them in mind should things go pear-shaped at Dathorn.
Posted by Hostmax-br, 10-24-2003, 02:50 PM
you mean stlhosting.com right?
Posted by foogee, 10-25-2003, 07:23 AM
LOL - yes STLHosting .
Posted by DigiCrime, 10-25-2003, 12:29 PM
My ears are ringing, I hear someone talking about me
Posted by toecheese, 11-01-2003, 12:20 PM
1000 passwd entries and 50+ WHM accounts on a server.
Posted by richy, 11-01-2003, 05:06 PM
actually im with dathorn and they dont pack their servers. load is ok on average, probably even close to good. It spikes now and again but nothing massive and only short term and its caught fairly fast. Im no worshipper of them, but I respect that andrew offers a budget solution and manages to offer it without cutting many corners. Ther servers really dont seem oversold, im sat on a sold up server and theres plenty of resources free. Run vmstat 20 and check how the server is performing, it should all be acceptible. Andrew can be a little abrupt but hes also pretty fair and a good host.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 11-02-2003, 04:36 PM
What sort of server specs?
Posted by Asverse, 11-02-2003, 04:42 PM
idologic_dh : I'm guessing 50 resellers on a single server would be pushing even a Dual Xeon, which isn't what Dathorn uses.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 11-02-2003, 06:39 PM
Any idea what they use? Just out of curiosity... I guess the difference with other bulk resellers is that they use an allocation based setup instead of a usage based system.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 11-02-2003, 10:08 PM
Allocation based setup over useage based setup [for WHM accounts], means you can add a LOT more WHM clients to the server, if you use the allocation based setup. In other words, their WHM clients cannot oversell resources where as useage based setup WHM accounts can oversell. I'm not saying dathorn add that many WHM clients to a server. I'm just saying it's doable because they don't allow their WHM accounts to oversell.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 11-02-2003, 11:41 PM
True... but that's basically overselling at the reseller package level vs oversell at the (reseller's) client package.... is it not?
Posted by Aussie Bob, 11-03-2003, 12:00 AM
Maybe not. Comes down to the server's specs. It would be safe for dathorn to oversell a little, as they're the only one on that server that can.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 11-03-2003, 12:28 AM
yes, that's what I meant...
Posted by collin, 11-08-2003, 07:15 AM
i have no idea if this thread had anything to do with it but dathorn is reinstating mailman. that makes me happy. but, i am closing in on the limits of the $13.50 2GB/30GB account and so the mailman issue instigated me to go shop around and now I feel like dathorn's pricing jump to $20.25 for 3GB/45GB is kind of a big jump for just 1GB more in space. I've found a few decent candidates around $15 for 4GB/40GB. Not as established as dathorn, but probably at about the same position as dathorn was when I joined up. however, now that mailman is back, I suppose I can sit tight and see what happens and shop around slowly.