HostGator *How are they*

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HostGator How are they

Posted by Intelle, 12-19-2004, 06:49 AM
Hi Guys, Well, after that big Turnkey fiasco, I'm looking for another host. From what I had been hearing since the time I joined the forums, HostGator really seems to be the best. Here are my requirements first of all: + Quality Service + 99.5%+ Uptime + Good Support (If possible Live Support or else something where I get an answer within half an hour) + Cost < 30$ + Space: As much as I get in that, more than 3,000mb + Bandwidth: As much as I can get, more than 30,000mb + Anonymous help for my clients From the above only the last requirement, "Anonymous help for my clients" is not fulfilled, so I guess on the whole it will be good for me. I want your suggetions on this, also tell me all you think/know about HostGator, good & bad reviews, experiences, staff interaction etc. Also, do you think any host would suit me more than HostGator considering the fact that they have a 24/7 support required for a new reseller and they give free WHMAP. Thanks for any help in advance.
Posted by ianedge, 12-19-2004, 06:56 AM
do a search... lol.. only joking I got an account with hostgator 2 weeks ago, then cancelled it straight away, and they refunded me same day... Reason I cancelled - they only offer private name servers via your registrars control panel, I couldnt be bothered with that... They were real quick answering my questions and refunding (via email, the 'live' people didnt answer) Good luck with your host search
Posted by Intelle, 12-19-2004, 07:04 AM
Thanks Ianedge. Well, what about getting my domain from them.... That way the nameservers and DNS propogation be their job. EDIT: I've contacted HostGator support loads of times and they do seem to be on 90% of the time I am. However I've heard that their Live Support people aren't much knowledgeable. Can you guys tell me more about this and also how do I contact them in case of real tech problems. Thanks, Intelle Last edited by Intelle; 12-19-2004 at 07:09 AM.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-19-2004, 07:27 AM
If you go with HostGator.. Might as well just sell the deed to your wallet over to them.
Posted by Intelle, 12-19-2004, 07:30 AM
Umm.... If you mean they are quite costly, well I'm looking for some real Quality this time you know. If the quality & services are good and there's no downtime, then I may risk my 25$ p/m.
Posted by one19, 12-19-2004, 07:54 AM
I've heard mostly good stuff about HOSTGATOR, though indeed they're a bit more costly than the others. However, in the end your personal experience counts. Some people get terrible expriences with HOSTXX while most others are very happy. It's like one drop of red ink in a glass of water. The water was perfectly fine and one drop of red ink (one customer with one experience) turns the whole glass into a reddish tint. Still, over 99% of the glass is pure clean water. I've recently "escaped from a particular 12" and have chosen another host. My decision to stick with a host or move on to another one will be based only on my own personal experience. My advise is to always have more than one reseller account with 2 different host providers. If you can't afford to do something like that, you might want to rethink your own business. You should never rely on nor blame your chosen hosting reseller for anything that happens to you. Regardless of how tempting "annual payment" offers may be, never start out on an annual plan with a new reseller. Go for quarterly (monthly can be too cumbersome). If you find a host you like -- for example HOSTXXX -- simply search the host in WHT and you'll find enough info. Make sure you also search in www.google.com. Also when you see "negative reviews", make sure you consider the following: a. read between the lines. is it a valid complaint by the thread starter? b. what was the date? some hosts had time-related issues and have improved immensely since. In the end, YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE is what matters. Remember HOSTGATOR is just 2 years old. But I must say, I've searched extensively and except for being pricey, it seems like a valid choice. Good luck and hope I was able to help.
Posted by Intelle, 12-19-2004, 07:57 AM
Thanks one19. From my research HostGator are really popular and they seem to be a good choice.
Posted by redone, 12-19-2004, 08:29 AM
I have been really impressed with Hostgator so far. Been with them for over 4 months now and are happy to report no problems! One thing I will say is that there seems to be confusion about the live support. Hostgator will be the first to tell you that live support is only to resolve somewhat simple tasks for anything else send in a support ticket. Hostgator get's my vote! One more happy Gator
Posted by coight, 12-19-2004, 08:32 AM
If your running a hosting business $15/mth more for a quality providers is not alot. Either be happy and pay more or whinge here and pay less it's as simple as that really.
Posted by ianedge, 12-19-2004, 09:50 AM
Yup spot on. I got burnt on hosting some 'fun' sites on a cheapo host. Would I host real paying customers on $5 a month hosts? No.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-19-2004, 10:02 AM
Live support is Level 1. It can be good for simple requests/questions. Funny thing is that I never needed more than that. I don't realise if that's a pro or against HG answer, but in any case, it's one thing to be paying $13 for 150GB (or less if prepaid) and quite another to pay $25 for 50GB.
Posted by chusiumei, 12-19-2004, 10:20 AM
I am looking for reseller host also and hostgator is on my list. However, what made me not giving them a shot is they don't help in transferring all my client acct. Though they said they have a thread teaching you how to do that by yourself, I found it too time consuming and troublesome. What you guys think about this. Do you think transferring acct cost you lots trouble and is that a major criteria in choosing a new host.
Posted by bryonhost1, 12-19-2004, 11:29 AM
Hi! Transferring is what will kill your business. I have taken a different approach than most...so I'll share a few points here. To start this business, I had to get a reseller account. I decided one was not enough....so then I got a few more. Well..let's just say I have more than a few now..and will keep 90% of these. Anyways...my approach is simple and straightforward. The second I can afford a dedicated box at theplanet, I'm there. Fine. Will I keep the reseller accounts with the dedicated box? Yup. All of them. I plan on moving only the ones that want moved...and keep the ones that are happy (for now) on the shared boxes. I'll leave it to them when they want to move up to them...it's their site..it should be their decision. I'm also taking a different approach to DNS than most...and I think I should mention this...and how I'm going to pull it off. I cannot afford to have all the accounts go through UltraDNS...so..I'll move the ones that want to pay a little extra..when the time is right. Even the serious customers who have UltraDNS providing their DNS on the shared boxes...when it comes time to switch...the switch will be so quick most will not even realize it happened. Five minutes, folks. That's it. It works, too. Good luck. Bryon
Posted by wayneg, 12-19-2004, 03:49 PM
bryonhost1 Your comments on transfering clients is of great interest to me! I am considering choosing another hosting supplier, and that will entail transfering clients. I have been reselling about 2 years now, and have accumulated over 35 clients. Can you give me any advice on this issue? Obviously I dont want any down time, or other problems accociated with a major move. I will do whatever is necessary to make sure my clients are moved safely with no interuption of service!!!! Also do you have any information about the supplier surfspeedy.com? That is who I am considering. Thanks, Wayne
Posted by bryonhost1, 12-19-2004, 05:39 PM
I have an account with them, of course. I'm not sorry...give me three months for one dollar? Sold! Honestly, I have not had time to put them through the paces yet...but will have more when I know more. What setup are your clients on now? There are servers that are designed to easily transfer clients from other servers. Hmmm..wait a sec..Brb. Ok...I was aware that WHM had a transfer function. I confirmed it..yes..it does. So...if your accounts are on Cpanel...it seems easy enough to transfer the data. That's not a complete transfer, tho. Transfering DNS is where the trouble is...that's where you may run into the imfamous server not found stuff. I'm not sure it can be avoided...unless...you move them a few at a time, maybe? I've not experience with such. As I said, I'm heading off problems like that by leaving the accounts where they are. I'll see what I can find out. Bryon Last edited by bryonhost1; 12-19-2004 at 05:49 PM.
Posted by wayneg, 12-19-2004, 06:10 PM
Byron, Thanks for the reply! Surf Speedy will not allow using WHM for client tranfer as I have already asked them. Don't ask me why...I just know that they said "No"! Anyway, any advice you can give me on Surf Speedy will be greatly appreciated! Hate to put my clients in the "wrong" hands. Wayne
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-19-2004, 09:17 PM
I was just about to sign up with HostGator but read a thread over at Cpanel.net warning about a few reseller hosting companies configuring their reseller accounts based on the "predicted" space based on your created hosting plans and not the TRUE space used. In other words, if HostGator was offering a reseller package allowing 1,000 Meg space and I had ten hosted domains each using 2 megs (totalling 20 megs). The system would not allow me to host these accounts. . . because I created plans that put each one an a 150 Meg plan. The fact that I have paid for 1,000 Megs of space yet am only using 20 Megs of it doesn't seem to matter. I would not be able to load my plans and ten sites with HostGator. This is an insane set up, but thankfully not many reseller hosts adopt this suicidal way of determining your useage. I've since signed up with coastinc.com. In fact, I have now three reseller accounts with them and I've found them to be excellent. Coastinc.com determin your usage based on the space you actually use and NOT the space you create your hosting plans on. This is by far the best system as it gives you room to grow - they get my vote of confidence. Cheers
Posted by snickn, 12-19-2004, 09:19 PM
Two years in this industry is at least one year more than many hosts make it. As far as pricey, to each their own, but you are building your business and your livelihood off of this company, I would think an extra couple value meals a month would be worth the peace of mind.
Posted by snickn, 12-19-2004, 09:26 PM
This is called "overselling" some webhosts don't allow it, others do.
Posted by fender21, 12-19-2004, 10:00 PM
not overselling is a good thing and the sign of a quality host..
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-19-2004, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure I agree with this. How can you equate "Quality" to a company that limits usage based on predicted usage and not true usage (if this is what you are referring to). And by the way, the term "overselling" is a term only used by those companies like HostGator, as a way to legitimise their system. The correct term is "Predited Usage" as opposed to "True Usage". For obvous reasons they won't like people referring to it as that. Surely quality should be a term describing a company who makes the right decisions about the volume of accounts it hosts on any one server in realtion to CPU utilisation rates and not a company who demands extra money for hosting accounts that are not even using any space. There is an old saying "You get what you pay for". HostGator changes this to" "You pay for what you don't use". It is utterly ridiculous. Thanks
Posted by ldcdc, 12-19-2004, 10:29 PM
And "some" used to allow it some time ago but now they don't. There is a reason for that as well.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-20-2004, 12:32 AM
Yes agreed. There are many hosts that start out doing the right thing by their customers. But, as you indicate, some do change. At the end of the day there are only two different types of systems: 1. The hugely popular one where your overusage is calculated on what space or bandwidth is actually used by your hosting clients. or 2. Where your overusage is calculated on "predicated" space or bandwidth that may not even be used. The hosting world is a competitive one and customers will force hosts to re-think what is fair or not fair. Solid Rack recently changed to calculating overusage based on true usage and not predicted usage for their reseller accounts. They also changed their name to Solid Host. This is one comapny who has obviously got serious about doing the right thing by their customers. Same with CoastInc. I feel HostGator will change eventually as more and more people get caught.
Posted by Intelle, 12-20-2004, 04:43 AM
Well, I think its safe if Overseling is off you know. This way suppose you have 1000mb space for your reseller. You make 10 accounts with 100mb quota, but they actually use only 50 mb each. So your clients use 500mb of space. Now you add 10 more clients with 100mb quota, but these also use just 50mb, and your usage becomes full 1000mb. You are satisfied and go off to sleep. Next day, from your previous 10 clients, 5 start using 75mb space (which is still less than the 100mb space that they are entitled to use) so your usage becomes 15*50 + 5*75 = 1125mb but you only have 1000mb. Now you use more than what you have. This results in downtime. This means unhappy clients, bad name in the industry, lots of trouble & uncountable sleepless nights. Don't you think its too much of a trouble this way. I really hate overselling from the first day here.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-20-2004, 05:04 AM
Exactly my point. If your hosting accounts use extra then you pay extra for it, instead of paying for extra usage that isnt' there. Or you can up to a higher plan. There is not one host I know of that doesn't allow you to do either. The point is, you "do sleep soundly" because you will be paying for space and bandwidth your hosting clients are actually using. Many hosts are reverting back to the "true" space and bandwidth model rather than the "predicted" model based on your hosting plans you invent. But anyway, that's only my three cents worth.
Posted by Intelle, 12-20-2004, 05:17 AM
Hmm.... you know you'll face downtime definately, also it'll be a lot of trouble to transfer the clients which means still more downtime and the domains propogations eill take yet more time so yet more downtime. Well and its just not you, there'll be 20-40 other hosts and they'll be doing the same, over-using their quota, so the server will have lots of downtimes, if not then it'll be very slow. After sometime it'll come to the fate that ZoneServ and Turnkey did, no matter how intlleigently or delligently the owner oversells. I think most of the other experienced webhosts here would agree with me too.
Posted by Website Rob, 12-20-2004, 05:25 AM
HappyPappy, you were close, with your description on the two types of Web space usage. Allocated & Actual Use, are the Terms commonly used today -- with "Actual Use" being the one you mentioned you think is better. I do too, but that's beside the point. I wrote a Basic Definition of the two that might come in handy. wayneg, Account Transfers have to be done with the 'root' WHM and therefore, done by a ServerAdmin of the Hosting company. Why a Hoster would not transfer accounts is beyond me. There is some work involved that's true and especially when the numbers get higher than 30 or 50. Each Hoster usually has a limit before they start charging a fee, although, most Hosters will transfer a particular number of accounts and not even think twice. Doing Account Transfers and whether a fee is required, is a good question for any Reseller to ask a potential Hoster.
Posted by fender21, 12-20-2004, 10:25 AM
I would equate overselling to the Airline industry. The airline overbooks most flights in hopes that people don't show (which in general is not a problem). When everyone does show, it's a problem. You never know when it happens, it just happens and the result is some people suffer. This is the same thing in web hosting and in the end the customers get burned. Sure, I'm losing some money because I'm not allowed to oversell but my experience has been remarkable uptime and speed from Hostgator and I attribute this to their policy against overselling. My 2 cents and nothing more.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-20-2004, 12:00 PM
To carry your example on a little further, and perhaps to put a more accurate slant on it, lets say you chartered a plane for a day and it had 100 seats, and that's what you paid for. Now you being enterprising and all, you organise your plane to stop off at multiple locations, selling seats for one destination, then selling for another destination. You NEVER actually use the 100 seats you paid for at any one time. But wait.... the charter company gets wind you have sold 150 seats in total and either stops you in your tracks or demands you charter a bigger plane to carry 200. You try to explain you will NEVER be using even the 100 seats you've paid for at any one time. But it falls on deaf ears. My own experience with this is that I had 18 hosting accounts that only totalled 211Megs of space and used an average monthly bandwidth of just a shade over 2 GIGs. Now you would think that a reseller plan allowing 2 GIGS of space and 20GIGS monthly bandwidth would be more than enough to handle 211 Megs of website files using 2 Gig monthly bandwidth but it didn't. It caughed and spluttered. Is this reseller hosting? I think not. Point is I went somewhere else after getting advice from quite a few others who have been caught the same way. I'm sure HostGator can keep their servers in good shape if they change to calculate overusage based on true and actual usage. God knows its insane otherwise.
Posted by NeoGen, 12-20-2004, 12:19 PM
A quick question here, Does HostGator oversell themselves?
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-20-2004, 09:00 PM
No. Host Gator does not calculate overusage based on true or actual usage of your hosting accounts. They base it on "predicted" useage, i.e. going off what plans you create and this is why people get caught. If they based overusage on the true space and bandwidth of my hosting accounts, I'd be joining them in, but as it is my reseller accounts are happily elsewhere, so HostGator haven't got a hope in hell of attracting me until they change to a fair system.
Posted by netrage, 12-21-2004, 01:12 AM
A "fair system" seems like the system seems QUITE fair to me. But you would rather have a system that allows you to oversell and I think we have seen numerous times around here what overselling will do to you.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-21-2004, 02:09 AM
You already pay for the space and bandwidth on a reseller account. By "Fair" I mean those hosts who allow you to actually use what you pay for. HostGator DOES NOT allow this, I'll repeat this, they DO NOT ALLOW THIS. They calculate overusage on "predicted" space and bandwidth based on your hosting plans...NOTHING to do with what your hosting accounts ACTUALLY and TRUELY use. So you could have 80% of your PAID reseller space and bandwidth unused and they will be demanding MORE money from you!!. Nobody I know with an IQ above 2 calls a system like this fair.
Posted by techiecool, 12-21-2004, 03:08 AM
HappyPappy, i could seem dense here but could you better explain the problem here. i seem to be miss understanding the terminalogy. so does hostgator oversell? or it seems to be different ways of overselling?
Posted by BrentOfHG, 12-21-2004, 03:31 AM
For our stance on it just read www.hostgator.com/overselling.html If we allowed overselling on our reseller plans we would not be in business still. Plain and simple.
Posted by techiecool, 12-21-2004, 03:50 AM
hostgator thanks for the clarification. also i notice you guys have to defend yourselves quite a bit here at WHT...seems odd. either you're too good to be true or people can't stand a winner. it seems the later. just a side note and not to nit pick or imply anything...but i can't seem to find that url you posted above on your site map. how would you know to find it if one were to look for it.
Posted by Website Rob, 12-21-2004, 04:49 AM
I think the URL referenced is a newly created page. Although it would seem against Forum Rules (linking to pages within one's own site) they might be able to get away with it in this specific thread. Unfortunately, the information provided on that Web page is using very flawed logic. "What would happen if we used the full 200 gigs of disk space and bandwidth? It would be called overselling and we would eventually go out of business. " Others would call that a Server full and time to setup another one. By Hostgator logic, when business is good and Servers get full, one eventually goes out of business. Remember, by Hostgator logic they do not oversell (since they use the Allocated method) and once all available space on a hard drive is sold (regardless of being used) then that Server has used all available hard drive space. Lots of us Hosters are using the "Actual Usage" method and doing just fine. So are our Clients. As had been said many times before: "It's not how many accounts are on a Server nor how big they are, it's how the resources of the Server are used and Server maintainence performed, that tells the story."
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-21-2004, 05:35 AM
I agree with WebsiteRob. However, I think HostGator may have inadvertantly admitted where the problem really is.... I suspect HostGator actually oversell their own reseller accounts on their servers, otherwise how the hell can a hosting operation say - if all our reseller accounts actually use the space and bandwidth they pay for we would not be in business. This is actually what they are saying here . However, my answer to that is simply to employ someone who can say "Hey this server is full, lets put on another one". So HostGator, why don't you... 1. Allow your resellers to use the actual space and bandwidfth they pay for in the first bloody place. 2. Employ a person who can monitor the servers 3. Start a new server when a server is full
Posted by Intelle, 12-21-2004, 11:40 AM
Thank you all for your comments on overselling guys, I was wondering if we can talk about experiences with HostGator and stuff.
Posted by techiecool, 12-21-2004, 11:49 AM
i think that's what is happening in a way. overselling is an issue w/ reselling so i am assuming the issue was brought up in regards to reliability and sustainability. so i think the subjuct is still on topic. and since you come from Turnkey this should probably be very important to you.
Posted by fender21, 12-21-2004, 11:54 AM
Intelle, As a Hostgator user, I'm happy with the service, uptime & support. I don't think you'll regret going with them. I agree with techiecool that overselling policy is an important business decision you'll need to make.
Posted by Intelle, 12-21-2004, 12:19 PM
Ya, I agree. Fender21, can you tell me in detail about your HostGator experience. Like a review on sales, setup of account, uptime, support, how you feel being their customer.
Posted by Intelle, 12-21-2004, 12:26 PM
Hi, Can I have your opinions on this: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=355671
Posted by BrentOfHG, 12-21-2004, 01:44 PM
It's a newly created page. I didn't think it would be against posting it since this thread has gotten off track and is now about hostgator and overselling. If it is let me know and I will be happy to just post what it says. "It would be called overselling and we would eventually go out of business. " Others would call that a Server full and time to setup another one. By Hostgator logic, when business is good and Servers get full, one eventually goes out of business." If you are a good host who cares about having stable servers you don't determine a server to be full based on how much disk space it has left. It's determined by server load and allowing plenty of room for those accounts to grow well into the future. If you base it on how much room is left on the drive all you would need is a P1 200 megahertz server. Why would servers cpu / ram matter if it's based on disk usage? We've yet to have a single server come close to using it's disk space before us having to stop putting new clients on the server. Disk space doesn't determine load but the amount of sites / how busy those sites are does. If we sold until the servers disk space was almost full our server loads would be EXTREMELY high, would be very unstable, and we would be out of business. Our average reseller is on the aluminum plan hosting around 30 websites. I believe this is very good bang for your buck our clients are happy, our servers are stable, and it's been years and were still in business. I'm not here to win the debate on overselling it can't be done as the 100's of previous threads before this one has proven. If we allowed overselling on our reseller plans we would be out of business. Everyone is free to go with any host they choose if you don't like our plans don't get mad at us for not offering what you think we should offer go to another host that does. I believe overselling is fine when you have control over future growth. I don't believe selling overselling to resellers is ok due to having no control on future growth. Of course overselling could be done if the packages officered were small enough, but then any potential buyers would be complaining they were to small. Here's a challenge for those supporting reseller plans that offer overselling.... If you can find a host that's been offering reseller plans with overselling enabled by default for at least 2 years, decent plans, at least 1,000 resellers and have a good reputation post it and I will be very impressed. I know we could find tons of hosts that don't offer overselling on reseller plans, been in business years, and have great reputations, but hey all I'm asking for is one that does. When a business model works many follow follow in it's success, when a business model is broke many follow in it's failure. Out of respect for the thread starter and his wishes please open a new thread on wht to discuss overselling. We need some actual hostgator experiences in here. =) Last edited by BrentOfHG; 12-21-2004 at 01:50 PM.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-21-2004, 06:47 PM
Please forgive me for carrying on this certain subject but I would like the opportunity to answer Host Gator please. Overusage based on "Predicted" usage as apposed to "TRUE" usage of a reseller's hosting accounts is a very important issue for all resellers - it can often make of break you, and I do firmly believe reseller hosts that base their overusage on "predicted" i.e usage that does not even exist, like Host Gator does, are not being fair to their reseller hosting clients. 1. If its got nothing to do with space and bandwidth, then why don't you allow your resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for? 2. If its nothing to do with space and bandwidth why did you say "we'd go out of business if you allowed our rersellers to use all the space and bandwidth they pay for"? Sorry HostGator, this is all about space and bandwidth and you know it. There is a direct corelation between how powerful a server is and how many hosting accounts you can comfortably fit on it. I can't believe that people put thier trust in you and you go and ask this question. Hang on, haven't you just said the opposite above. HostGator, we are talking here about allowing your resellers to use the space and bandwidth THEY HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR. No matter what argument you use by not allowing your sesellers to use the space and bandwidth THEY HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR is doan right cheating them. A harsh comment indeed but where else in business can you get away with not permitting your customers to utilise what they pay for. To say you'd be out of business is you allowed your resellers to use the space and bandwith they have ALREADY PAID you for is simply insame. I can't go selling something to someone then turn around and say, "but if you use all of it I'll go out of business". If this is really the case, you need to look seriously at how you have things set up. You should always take into account the future groth of not only your own operations but also that of your resellers. Keep a buffer (unused space) on hard disks specifically for future growth. For example, if you have 60 Gig space on a hard disk you should not sell above about say 40GIG worth of reseller accounts, keeping in mind the 40 GIG or resellers will rarely utilise their full amount. So you have a buffer and will be giving ALL your rersellers the ability to confortably grow both in size and traffic. Yes, coastinc.com is one of many. From what I know they are run by Ethan of fastservers.net, a company that is in the business of server management. Fastservers.net are authorized distributors of CPanel and as you know you don't get to be an authorized distributor of the world's number one webhost control system easily. You only need to go over to cpanel.net to see the glowing reports and reviews on this comany by people who own servers. And yes they have been around for much longer than two years. My personal experience with them is excellent, I have three reseller plans with them and actually re-sell their reseller plans too, such is my confidence in them. They allow resellers to utilise all the space and bandwidth they pay for yet at the same time allow for growth. Really, its not a terribly difficult thing to do to allow your resellers to confortably use the space they pay for, perhaps get in contact with fastserver.net and they will be able to assist you. Yes I agree. But don't you get tired of following everyone like sheep? If there is a better way of doing things then how will it ever be discovered if everyone simply follows what is done. The fact remains there ARE reseller hosts that do allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for, and there are many, many that manage it perfectly. Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-21-2004 at 06:56 PM.
Posted by netrage, 12-21-2004, 07:08 PM
Happy Pappy here probably believes in the "unlimited" hard drive as well. I mean really... if you have a server with, let's say that has 80 gigs... and you sell that server up to capacity, by allocating it out to accounts, not ACTUAL usage mind you, but allocated. If you were to use Happy Pappy's logic... it would be ok to sell above and BEYOND the allocated space because you aren't using it RIGHT NOW... so go ahead, stuff more accounts on it. Then hope people don't use all the space allocated to them because there isn't that much on the server! Quite simply because you over-allocated, and overselling doesn't work. no matter how you slice it. But to put this on topic. I've been with Hostgator for about a month, happy with them so far, my only complaint against them is they have this thing against linking to IRC chat rooms... so I have another account with someone else for that.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-21-2004, 08:43 PM
Bloody hell, I can't belive people don't follow what's going on here, what I suspect Host Gator and a few others are doing to this industry is absolute madness. In my humble opinion it is one of the most serious cons being perpetrated against small hosting businesses I have ever seen. The fact that there is even one person supporting this is disturbing. However, there may be a misunderstanding about all this. Because its such an important issue effecting all resellers and because I feel quite strongly about it, please let me make what I'm saying perfectly clear. Here is an example, so please follow this carefully.... lets say..... 1. I have a decently powerful server with a 100GIG HDD space for my reseller hosting accounts. Lets call the server "HonestJohn". 2. Say, I sell 30 x 1,000 MEG reseller accounts and 10 x 2,000 MEG reseller accounts and say 2 x 5,000 MEG reseller accounts. 3. That's a total space usage of 60 GIG allocated - which is the absolute maximum should every reseller use 100% of their space they have already paid for. Do you agree with this so far? So this means that if evey single reseller uses 100% of their space, it would total 60 GIG being used, and I'd still have 40 GIG completely vacant. Agree? 4. O.K now, because of my policies on ensuring that server resources are not oversubscribed I would close off "HonestJohn" server and would start a new server "HonestBill". (Obviously every host has their own policy in this regard but I'd do it at 60%) Now, what would happen to a typical reseller on my "HonestJohn" server? Lets use a 1000MEG reseller account, which includes 20GIG monthly traffic, here as an example... Lets say this reseller has 20 hosting accounts that actually use in total only 300 MEGS of space and lets say the total bandwidth used by his hosting clients averages out at only 3GIG per month. This means he is actually using much, much less that what he has paid for. Right? Agreed? He only advertises one hosting plan, done so so he can be competitive. He advertises his 50MEG Space/5GIG monthly traffic plan. So lets look at this so far, he has a reseller hosting account that he has paid for that gives him 1000MEG space and 20 GIG of bandwidth. Yet he only is using 300 Megs of space and 3 GIG of bandwidth. Follow?? Now with my 'HonestJohn" server this reseller can keep adding hosting accounts until all his hosting accounts actually use all of his allowable 1000MEG space and 20 GIG monthly traffic. WITH HOST GATOR HE CAN NOT!!! - THEY WILL WANT MORE MONEY FROM HIM Infact, he would not even have been able to load all his 20 accounts if he was with Host Gator, despite his accounts using far LESS that his 1000Meg space and 20 GIG bandwidth he has already paid for But why would this be so with Host Gator?? Well, to answer this we need to look back at the beginning where I said that I would close off the "HonestJohn" server at 60GIG (60%). But what if I didn't!!??!! What if a hosting operation puts far more resellers on their HDD than they really should? Lets look at the same server example but with a slightly different, and very disturbing scenario.... Say I have a server called "Croc" that has a 100GIG HDD and I put on it 40 x 1000MEG Reseller accounts, 30 x 2000 MEG Reseller accounts and 5 x 5 Meg accounts on it. I'm not preallocating space myself (at the server admin level) to my reseller accounts so I can just keep adding new accounts. In this example if every reseller used all the space they have paid for I would need 125GIG HDD on my "Croc" server, but I only have a 100GIG HDD. So what would this do to me? Well, I think you can see from what Host Gator say in their posts what this would do!!!! So there you have it. Its all about whether a host does the right thing by their hostng clients and calculates overusage based on (and allows for) the TURE usage of their resellers hosting accounts or whether they try to base it off "predicated" usage i.e. usage that does not actually exist. I hope this explains it in detail. It is a very serious issue and the reason why these type of questionable reseller hosting operations are still in business is largely because they try to justify their unfair method by using the term "overselling" as being BAD. Of course people are going to think "overselling" is bad - just by the nature of the word itself - which immeditaly suggests that "overselling" is the selling of something you haven't paid for in the first place. This is absolutely and utterly incorrect and I want to make this pioint as plain as day.... Calculating the overusage based on the TRUE space and bandwidth of a reseller hosting accounts and allowing your resellers to use the space and bandwidth they have al;ready paid for is NOT overselling. If a reseller is not allwed to use the space and bandwidth they pay for then what in hells name is happening to this industry. Good luck you people with Host Gator and other hosting operations that do not allow you to utilise what you pay for. Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-21-2004 at 08:52 PM.
Posted by osphere, 12-21-2004, 09:01 PM
For me they are a great host, i was with them for over 6 month's with a great uptime (only 2 downtimes, of like... 10 minutes). I cancelled because i went to dedicated with EV1
Posted by ldcdc, 12-21-2004, 09:24 PM
HappyPappy, I suggest you ask AussieBob from HTTPme about allowing resellers to oversell and what that can lead to. BTW, hosts that allow overselling will generally be more expensive and those who don't will be less expensive. It's a trade off really. A server can reliably push on average X GB of data transfer while being stable, so what the host can sell is X GB. Now, the host may sell X GB under "Actual usage" and that will result N1 accounts per server. If they sell it based on the "allocated" method they can put more reseller accounts on the server (N2), but they can now sell them at a smaller price and yet get the same amount of money out of the server. The customer enjoys the smaller price but not the ability to oversell. Sure, that's an oversimplification, but that's what a rough model does.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 01:17 AM
I totally agree with Happy Pappy. If I had a server with 100GB of space: I sold 50 GB to you -and- 50GB to someone else That would allow me to break even and for you to use all your PAID resources.. What host gator does is.. If you only use 10 GB of that 50 -and- The other guy only uses 40 GB of the 50 HostGator see's that there is only 50GB being used between you, so they will cram more accounts on there, short changing you and making your plan nearly only half of what it really is. All so they can make that buck. If you disagree, then maybe you are reading into my reply wrong, but this is infact what happens.. So, because you didn't use that full 50GB, they are gonna put more accounts on there so that they can somehow fill that 100GB drive.. But.. Lord knows, if next month, you boost to 20 Gig usage, you will get penalised for overselling because of this method. Just my example.
Posted by techiecool, 12-22-2004, 02:45 AM
ScreamingEaglePC and happypappy, is this your opinion of what hostgator is doing or is this fact?
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 03:02 AM
When people are getting "OVERSELLING" notices before they even reach 70% of their quota that they are supposedly "allowed" inside their hosting plan.. I think it is rather apparent what is going on.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 03:05 AM
http://resellerzoom.com/index.html
Posted by Intelle, 12-22-2004, 04:16 AM
Well, you know if you use the non-overselling method, the servers will be faster and the resultant uptime will be good. You can see this is true by HostGator's example. From what I've come to know (and see too) is that HostGator's uptime is always 99.9%+ . There are hardly any network issues and the speed is remarkable too. The server load must me quite less too, but as I don't have an account with them yet, I can't say. So you can see that this business model does yield good results. Coming to your business model, whether you see it from any angle the roots are based in overselling. Its not bad, but you have to see, no matter now intelligently you do it, overselling does not work out in the end. Take Turnkey for example. Their overselling technique was/is one of the best ones one could ever come across, but still it failed. So you can see the stability for an overselling type business yourself.
Posted by techiecool, 12-22-2004, 04:31 AM
Intelle, that's what confused me. i thought hostgator doesn't oversell. so i'm not sure what the problem is for them...in fact it seems the majority of people never complain about their servers but about support issues if they complain at all.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 04:31 AM
I was adding my hosting accounts to a reseller plan sold to me by one of these hosts that work off "predicted" usage and not true usage. My hosting accounts I was adding totalled 198 Megs in total and the last few months they used a combined total bandwidth of under 2 GIG. Yes, I was happy that I had heaps of room to grow and add more . . . or so I thought. The reseller account I was adding to stopped me fair in my tracks, saying I had exceeded my allowable limit. But I had just shelled out for 1,000 Megs of space - I had actually loaded up to that point only 110 Megs worth. And because I hadn't changed the IP address of my nameservers, none of them were even live so I had not used one single byte of bandwidth, other than through FTP to load the 110Megs worth of files. I held back from throwing my monitor through the window. On contating the host they said, "Oh, we don't allow overselling, sorry, you'll have to pay more money for a much bigger plan". I wanted to jump down the phone and strangle the dick-head. I tried to point out they had just taken my money for 1,000 Megs of space and 20 GIGs bandwidth and that the total sum of the my hosting accounts didn't even come in at 10% of this. I even looked at the Trade Practices Act in this country to see whether I can take some action against this host who took my money. However, they refunded after much effort so I dropped folloing through this this. It would have been an unusual situation. I could easily prove I paid for 1,000 Meg of space and at the same time I could easily prove the space used in my account was only 110Meg, when it blocked me. Case closed - I can't see how I could have lost. No matter what country you are in there is likely to be consumer laws that will ensure that if you pay for 1,000 Megs of space, then you ARE ENTITLED to use 1,000 Meg of space, but not according to Host Gator and some other hosts out there. Make no mistake, there is a brewing resentment amongst resellers that feel totally cheated when they are told "NO, you can't use the space and bandwidth you have paid for". And rightly so. If you are with Host Gator or any other host that does this, be ready to read the message over at Netcraft telling you why Host Gator and all your sites have suddently disappeared off the face of the Planet!! Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-22-2004 at 04:37 AM.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 04:53 AM
I understand that you don't like their business model, that it doesn't fit your needs, but that statement above was uncalled for (IMO). There are hosts out there who have very strong feelings about overselling. They don't do it and they most definitely wouldn't allow their resellers to do it. That doesn't mean that they're doomed. I find it interesting that on one side we have people complaining about the practice of overselling in itself and on the other hand we have resellers who feel that not being allowed to oversell is unfair. I guess you can never make all the people happy. Bottomline is: Do not assume, ask before you buy!
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 05:23 AM
That's not the right statement. The statement should read.. ...on the other hand we have resellers who feel that not being allowed to sell the amount of bandwidth and disk space they paid for, because the host wanted to cram 5 more customers on one server so they could make an extra buck, making you pay the same amount of money while being restricted to basically being on a lower plan than you paid for.. is unfair.
Posted by cyberbear, 12-22-2004, 07:21 AM
Back in 2001 I started out as a reseller subscribing to an account that allowed unlimited domains. Later I got my own servers offering unlimited domains with reseller plans as well. I liked it when I were a reseller, but as customer base on my own servers increased and customers added still more domains to their accounts, each server became less profitable. I sold my hosting company in 2004, and will probably return back to this field some time, but I'll use another aproach to make it worth the living and the work this time. I understand why httpme.com, for instance., doesn't offer unlimited domains as they did in the start. It's all about earning a reasonable profit and about staying in business. Their reseller costs are ok, but I would put a restriction on the number of domains on each of the accounts. John
Posted by cyberbear, 12-22-2004, 07:33 AM
I just noticed that they offer unl. pop3 accounts. I did that in the start. Then one person started creating his own "post office" on one of my servers. I noted that something happened with the resources on that servers and asked the client what was going on. He replied that he were about to set up 9000 pop3 accounts on the shared server I offered him his own dedicated server, off course, and quickly added a clause to the TOS, as regards to email services. For some reason I can't access their TOS (probably a bottleneck at our end) but hopefully they have, or they can expect the one person(s) really using up all the resources to arrive at some time in the future. John
Posted by kat7, 12-22-2004, 07:35 AM
Fine by whose standard? The seller or buyer? I was on a host that oversold and pretty soon I could not even set up an account because I had no disk space when I had only sold 1000 out of 3000. WAS is the operative word! They went belly up shortly after I left their service. The reality is very few sites will use over 50 megs of space and sellers want to offer 150 megs instead? for what reason? show? Gee whiz those of you selling a customer 150 megs of space ... do you offer them a refund if they only use 10? Let me get this straight we have a few here who are selling customers an imaginary 150 megs? Does anyone call this cheating the customer? Let's put the shoe on the other foot here ... you purchase 1000 megs of space to sell but actually only have 100 to sell because your datacenter sold the rest to someone else because your customers will PROBABLY only use the 100. Oh well? if by chance someone uses more space than expected. All oversellers please list below. Thumbs up for those who refuse to cave in to the oversell practice. And let call a spade a spade ... oversell is exactly that no matter how much you would like it to be differently defined. Linda
Posted by Intelle, 12-22-2004, 07:36 AM
Well Happy listen what you could've done in that situation in order to use your full 1000mb is - Suppose you made 5 accounts each of 200mb, but 4 use 50 mb and only one uses 100mb, now if you wish to utilize the remaining space of yours, just put the first 4 account in a package of 50mb and put the 5th in a package of 100mb, this way, you could get the rest 700mb of space which can be used. If however, these are your clients websites and you can't fiddle with the packages, simply make your price a bit higher. This way you get your money, your clients get fast speed & high uptime services, and you needn't care if the customer uses 10mb or 100mb or 200mb from their alloted 200mb of space. See the logic, you have money, clients have great service, you have no tensions. And your clients will be willing to pay the high price if you give them good services.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 07:41 AM
And who in their right mind is complaining about allowing resellers to use the space and bandwidth they actually pay for? Look no further than greedy hosting operations. I wish I could name some more names here but unfortunatly most are all gone. This entire issue is about resellers being allowed to utilise the space and bandwidth they have paid for from server owners, nothing more nothing less. If the argument by people like Host Gator is simply that its not viable to do this with their servers, then get out of the industry, you can't manage a server correctly. Don't cheat people and disallow them from using the space and bandwidth they pay for because you'd "go out of business otherwise". That's no excuse. Reminds me of the criminal who justified his theft and the pain he caused his victims by saying, "if I didn't steel I couldn't pay the rent and I be kicked out". The beauty of this all is we the resellers are waking up to the odd few who are trying to put it over us.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 07:53 AM
You've missed the boat entirely. As a webhost if my client wanted to utilse the imaginery 150 megs of course he can, because he paid for it, and I've got room because I've planned for it. But with some reseller hosts, if a reseller wanted to utilse the SPACE HE HAS ALREADY PAID FOR he would be refused, and will usually asked for more money. That's the difference. FOR GOD'S SAKE THIS IS ONLY ABOUT ALLOWING A RESELLER TO UTILISE THE SPACE AND BANDWIDTH HE HAS ALREADY PAID FOR. HOW IN GOD'S NAME CAN ANYONE ARGUE AGAINST THAT??? Well, Host Gator certainly seem to.
Posted by kat7, 12-22-2004, 08:08 AM
HappyPappy Do you have a clue how skewed your argument is? Has it crossed your mind you are the true cheat by cheating your own customers? You sell them 150 megs of space and hope they don't use it so you can sell what they don't use to someone else? Clearly some of you people have either totally missed for failed at the ethical side of your education. God deliver us all from people who operate their business like this. Linda
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 08:54 AM
Linda.. Linda.. Linda.. Happy Pappy isn't saying he is doing that, he is saying that is what Host Gator is doing to their customers. We are standing up for ourselves, but all Host Gator has to say is basically: "If we don't cheat you, we will be out of business." That is what we, and happy pappy are going against. The fact that Host Gator sells packages, but if they only use 20% of their package for 2 months, Host Gator is basically suspecting that that is all they will ever use, so they will cram more accounts on that server to outfit that 80% free space, which will cheat the original customer.
Posted by ZenithInternet, 12-22-2004, 09:09 AM
Back to the original question. I also have been with HostGator for about 6 months or so, after switching from HTTPme (which should be a good indication of their level of service). I have had ZERO issues with HG, and every email or support issue I have sent them has been dealt with promptly and personally. I haven't had to think about my hosting account with HG, it runs smoothly in the background, like it should. I don't think they are expensive, even though I am committed to an older pricing scheme. But I feel like I am getting value, service and piece of mind for my money. And no, I don't work for them and this message isn't sponsored...
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 10:46 AM
Hey kat7, you said "You sell them 150 megs of space and hope they don't use it so you can sell what they don't use to someone else?" Rubbish kat7. Every single hosting account holder of mine can use every single bit of space and bandwidth they pay for. Not one of my hosting account holders will be told "sorry, if you want to use the space you've already paid for then you have to pay more". If I need more room to accommodate this then I get a larger reseller plan because my host calculates my usage on what my hosting accounts ACTUALLY REALLY USE!! So you are totally wrong kat7. The point is resellers are being told by some reseller hosts that they CAN NOT use the space they have already paid for. Its really as simple as this. The fact that you are trying to defend a system that is inherintly contrary to the fundamentals of fair and just business practices astounds me. If you are one that support hosts telling their resellers they can't use the space and bandwidth they pay for then this is fine for you, but for some in this business its important to be allowed to actually use the space and bandwidth that is paid for. It is beyond my comprehension you (or anyone else) can't see this. Tell me kat7, what would you do if you purchased a broaband internet connection that allowed for 5 GIG's downloads per month. Then your broadband provider terminates your connection saying if you want to use more than 2 GIG's per month you have to pay more? You could argue that you've already paid for 5 GIG's, just as I am arguing the same here for all those resellers who have been denied the space and bandwidth they have already paid for. Can't you see this?
Posted by netrage, 12-22-2004, 01:06 PM
You really are a seriously dense individual... aren't you Pappy. So, you are saying if you had 1000 megs of space... and you sold that off to 10 accounts of 100 megs each. Now, that space has been sold off, allocated to 10 of your customers. But, now you notice that NONE of them are even coming close to using their 100 megs. In fact, they ave. about 25 megs each so they are only using about 250 megs of your 1000. So you are saying "look at all that space they aren't using! They paid for it but not using it! So I can cram more accounts on!". So since you THINK you have 750 meg free, you sell off another 7 of the 100 meg accounts. So now you have 17 100 meg accounts, which, if they get ANYWHERE near full, would use 1700 megs of space.. but you only HAVE 1000 megs. Do you not see the problem here? In fact, those 17 accounts only REALLY have about 58.8 megs of space they can TRUELY use under your model and you running on the premise that none of them will ever use that much. If you still say this is a sound model to run on... I pity any of your customers, if you have any that is.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 02:17 PM
HappyPappy, ScreamingEaglePC, ultimately, what you're arguing and being upset about, is that HG doesn't allow you to do what you claim they are doing: oversell. Let me give you this example: I suppose you do offer email accounts to your customers, right? Say the customer bought from you 100 MB of space. He now proceeds to create email (or FTP accounts) with 10 MB of space each. How many such accounts can your customer create?
Posted by kelvinklay, 12-22-2004, 02:37 PM
hostgator is very old company.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 02:40 PM
I ain't even gonna fight it.. If you guy's don't understand what we are saying now, then you just never will until it happens to you.
Posted by techiecool, 12-22-2004, 02:49 PM
i think ScreamingEaglePC and HappyPappy, are talking about companies that oversell, which hostgator is not.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 02:57 PM
ScreamingEaglePC, did you read my previous post? Shared hosting is done using the "allocated" method. If you are a host, you do it, if HappyPappy is a host, he does it. Yet you complain that some hosts do it for reseller accounts.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 02:59 PM
You'll see. If you are a customer.. You'll see. That's all I have to say. If you can't read and understand my posts correctly.. Then that is all you need to know.
Posted by netrage, 12-22-2004, 03:10 PM
if you can't understand.. you'll see... you'll be sorry" Sounds like some sort of threat to me.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-22-2004, 03:13 PM
Whatever get's you through the night..
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 03:28 PM
HG has been around for over 2 years. I've been hosted by them with very good uptime for 11 1/2 months. They're growing at a steady (if not accelerated) rate. There are few (if any) signs that they'll dissapear anytime soon. I fail to understand why you don't read and comment on my earlier post though. Explain how what HG is doing is any different from what a shared host is doing. Last edited by ldcdc; 12-22-2004 at 03:33 PM.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 08:52 PM
Hey netrage, you just don't follow it mate. I buy space to USE not to be told I'm not allowed to use. If I, or any other reseller, actually goes over their limit, this is called upgrading. I mean, you have heard of this haven't you netrage? Its where if a reseller's hosting accounts ACTUALLY USES more space than he has paid for so he buys more or gets upgraded to the next higher reseller plan. Its not rocket science. This may come as a shock but EVERY host I know of allows their resellers to upgrade if their hosting accounts use more than the reseller has actually paid for. So, netrage, you say "If you still say this is a sound model to run on... I pity any of your customers". Congratulations, you've just put down the entire hostng industry. And for idcdc who asks what is it exactly that Host Gator are doing, maybe follow this here.....(but keep in mind its only my opinion, Host Gator can of course come in here and post their opinion too, this is the best thing about forums, they are opinions given in an open and friendly format).... 1. I have a decently powerful server with a 100GIG HDD space for my reseller hosting accounts. Lets call the server "HonestJohn". 2. Say, I sell 30 x 1,000 MEG reseller accounts and 10 x 2,000 MEG reseller accounts and say 2 x 5,000 MEG reseller accounts. 3. That's a total space usage of 60 GIG allocated - which is the absolute maximum should every reseller use 100% of their space they have already paid for. Do you agree with this so far? So this means that if evey single reseller uses 100% of their space, it would total 60 GIG being used, and I'd still have 40 GIG completely vacant. Agree? 4. O.K now, because of my policies on ensuring that server resources are not oversubscribed I would close off "HonestJohn" server and would start a new server "HonestBill". (Obviously every host has their own policy in this regard but I'd do it at 60%) Now, what would happen to a typical reseller on my "HonestJohn" server? Lets use a 1000MEG reseller account, which includes 20GIG monthly traffic, here as an example... Lets say this reseller has 20 hosting accounts that actually use in total only 300 MEGS of space and lets say the total bandwidth used by his hosting clients averages out at only 3GIG per month. This means he is actually using much, much less that what he has paid for. Right? Agreed? He only advertises one hosting plan, done so so he can be competitive. He advertises his 50MEG Space/5GIG monthly traffic plan. So lets look at this so far, he has a reseller hosting account that he has paid for that gives him 1000MEG space and 20 GIG of bandwidth. Yet he only is using 300 Megs of space and 3 GIG of bandwidth. Follow?? Now with my 'HonestJohn" server this reseller can keep adding hosting accounts until all his hosting accounts actually use all of his allowable 1000MEG space and 20 GIG monthly traffic. WITH HOST GATOR HE CAN NOT!!! - THEY WILL WANT MORE MONEY FROM HIM Infact, he would not even have been able to load all his 20 accounts if he was with Host Gator, despite his accounts using far LESS that his 1000Meg space and 20 GIG bandwidth he has already paid for. BUT WITH SITE 5 HE WON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM, HE'D BE ABLE TO KEEP GROWING HIS BUSINESS AND SERVE HIS HOSTING CLIENTS. But why would this be so with Host Gator?? Well, PERHAPS to answer this we need to look back at the beginning where I said that I would close off the "HonestJohn" server at 60GIG (60%). But what if I didn't!!??!! What if a hosting operation puts far more resellers on their HDD than they really should? Lets look at the same server example but with a slightly different, and very disturbing scenario.... Say I have a server called "Croc" that has a 100GIG HDD and I put on it 40 x 1000MEG Reseller accounts, 30 x 2000 MEG Reseller accounts and 5 x 5 Meg accounts on it. I'm not preallocating space myself (at the server admin level) to my reseller accounts so I can just keep adding new accounts. In this example if every reseller used all the space they have paid for I would need 125GIG HDD on my "Croc" server, but I only have a 100GIG HDD. So what would this do to me? Well, I think you can see from what Host Gator say in their posts what this would do!!!! So there you have it. Its all about whether a host does the right thing by their hostng clients and calculates overusage based on (and allows for) the TURE usage of their resellers hosting accounts or whether they try to base it off "predicated" usage i.e. usage that does not actually exist. I hope this explains it in detail. It is a very serious issue and the reason why these type of questionable reseller hosting operations are still in business is largely because they try to justify their unfair method by using the term "overselling" as being BAD. Of course people are going to think "overselling" is bad - just by the nature of the word itself - which immeditaly suggests that "overselling" is the selling of something you haven't paid for in the first place. This is absolutely and utterly incorrect and I want to make this pioint as plain as day.... Calculating space and bandwidth usage based on the TRUE space and bandwidth of a reseller hosting accounts and allowing your resellers to use the space and bandwidth they have already paid for is NOT overselling. If a reseller is not allwed to use the space and bandwidth they pay for then what in hells name is happening to this industry. Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-22-2004 at 09:04 PM.
Posted by joshuayip, 12-22-2004, 09:18 PM
Switch from HTTPme to HG? Why ? I thought the HTTPme are the happening hosters.... Joshua
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 09:43 PM
HappyPappy, you just restated things you've said earlier. Let me ask you this: do you sell hosting?
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 09:53 PM
Yes I do, and every client of mine can use every single byte of space and bandwidth I sell them if they want... because if I need extra space or bandwidth to cater for this then I either buy extra or upgrade my account. Its called taking care of your hosting clients and giving them what they pay for.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 10:07 PM
OK, so you sell hosting. You give/sell your customer 100mb of space. How many 10MB FTP accounts can he create?
Posted by techiecool, 12-22-2004, 10:18 PM
dan, i'm not sure if this is a battle worth fighting for. i think it's simple...you either like a company and it's business model and are going to work w/ them or you're going to find someone else. maybe it's perfect for the next guy but not you. to each their own. but it's also evident that under whatever the scenario, that HG is doing well and they have a loyal following and we should leave it up to their customers to rate their service.
Posted by cyberbear, 12-22-2004, 10:28 PM
Sigh. Same old WHT. Be wise
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-22-2004, 10:32 PM
You are going off on a merry raoundabout here Idcdc. All the resources I allow my clients through their hosting plans can be 100% met. If I need more space or bandwidth, then, as I said, I either buy it or upgrade. You use the word "give" your cutomers. My plans "include" measurements of space and bandwidth that they can use because they have paid for it. I'm not going to penalise them if they don't use what they pay for nor will I penalise them if they do. I hope this makes things clearer for you regards the method I use, which, may I add, is about as fair as you can possibly get.
Posted by ldcdc, 12-22-2004, 10:58 PM
techiecool, it's not a battle for me and it's not about Hostgator, even though the thread and some users make it to be. I actually learn a lot from the various debates I participate in. They enable me to see various ways of thinking and give me a reason to put my brain to work. cyberbear, I guess that's why it's called WebHostingTalk. I asked a simple question HappyPappy. You failed twice in this thread to address my point, but I don't expect you to completely accept my point. It's psychologically understandable why you can't give in. Fact is that there's no difference between HG's method of selling reseller accounts and your method of approaching FTP accounts. To quote you, "it's about as fair as you can possibly get". My point is made (once again). I will take techiecool's advice now and just let this thread be. Thank you all for the challenging discussion. I'll see you around!
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-23-2004, 12:04 AM
Thank you ldcdc. It seems for you the penny may have dropped. Site5 do things in a fair and just way, just as I do, they allow their resellers to utilise the space and bandwidth they pay for, while Host Gator doesn't. But let me guess, your next post will perhaps be about how bad site5's model is. I suggest save the time, site5 has been around for a long time and from what I know they manage things very well and their servers are fast indeed and, may I add, they allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for in the first place. Host Gator doesn't. To to sum up, a reseller has a choice to go with a host that allows them to use the space and bandwidth they pay for or they can go with a host that doesn't. At the end of all this, and to conclude this rather long thread, this are the two choice resellers have, no matter how much slant you care to put on either method. So if you want a reseller account, don't forget to ask the question: "Do you calculate usage based on the "predicted" usage of the resellers invented hosting plans, or do you calculate the usage based on the true and actual usage of the reseller's hosting accounts?" i.e. Ficticious space and bandwidth or true space or bandwidth. Choose wisely. Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-23-2004 at 12:16 AM.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-23-2004, 12:19 AM
I don't mean to butt in, but this will be my last post in this topic. ldcdc, I don't mean to be rude, but perhaps it's you that does not see the clear picture.. As far as the FTP question goes. It is up to the customer to be smart with their space, to know that FTP space takes up their file space, and to know that email's take up space. If the customer cannot maintain his quota, then he has the choice to upgrade to a new plan, or to buy more space and bandwidth by the block.. With HostGator, as previous customer concerns stated before, this option of upgrading or buying more filespace and bandwidth comes when you've nearly only filled 60% of your quota.. This is caused by server overcrowding. And this is where they get you asking for more money.. Somewhere around the 60-75% mark instead of when they actually fill the 99-100% mark like it should be. Although I respect your opinion, and I hope you do accept mine also, even if I don't agree with them, I respect them. All I can say, is maybe you have to experience it for yourself like I did, before you will believe what we are saying.
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-23-2004, 12:37 AM
Well said ScreamingEaglePC. And thank you to all for an entertaining discussion on what really is developing into quite a hot topic within the hosting industry. I feel companies like site5, coastinc, hostingzoom and others that allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for are going to make a killing as this issue becomes more fully undertood by resellers around the place. So, to finalise again . . . . choose wisely.
Posted by kat7, 12-23-2004, 07:38 AM
Don't rubbish me Pappy ... its making you look like a fool. I am going to assume you did not flunk math or basic logic. Most everyone here sees the point except you and Screaming. There is an ethics here ... I buy bandwidth or space or whatever that is stored elsewhere. I expect to get what I have paid for when and where I need it. I DO NOT EXPECT to need it and you have to dash out and purchase more of whatever ... nor do I expect you to make double/triple money off what I have purchased from you. There is a very simple solution to using every bit of your space. Its so simple it probably flew over your head a mile high at mach speed. You sell EVERYONE 25 megs of space and WHEN THEY NEED MORE ... then you upgrade them to a bigger package. Then you would not have a problem not having your selling space available would you? Oh my god what a revelation! It is clear to everyone that you are inflating your package (please remind me to use this as a selling point on why prespective clients should purchase space from me and not you) simply to look like you are giving someone a great deal knowing full well they will probably never in a million years use that much space. That way you can sell and resell the spare you say they have purchased. Instead of making say $50 bucks a month off me you are taking my money and overselling MY PURCHASED space for $100 a month to 2 other people. Then because we are now using ALL of MY PAID SPACE that should be free NONE OF US can get on to our site because YOUR SERVER is now full. You have made it more than abundantly clear that your business ethics are at the bottom of the heap. It is the person like you who gives us all a bad reputation. Great going guy everyone wants to do business with a cheat. Screaming ... nice try to bail this guy out ... he indeed is saying his policy is to oversell ... you have indicated it is also a policy you advocate. If it is a policy you implement in your business then the above applies to you also. I can't believe I am having a discussion with a 2 fence posts. Linda
Posted by kat7, 12-23-2004, 07:59 AM
So that is why my space hosted with Coast got slower and slower to the point of crawling like a snail the last couple of months. Wonder how many other costomers they lost and will continue to lose? Linda
Posted by HappyPappy, 12-23-2004, 08:21 AM
Why in Gods name would I go out and buy more space when I have PAID space unused. You are obviously connected with a reseller host because this is EXACTLY the sort of underhanded ethics that is making this industry so damn copetitive. i.e. forcing resellers to buy more space while they have unused space THEY HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR sitting vacant. Rubbish. EVERY ONE of my hosting clients can utilse what they pay for if they choose to. This is for my hosting account holders to decide, not me and not my reseller host. For Gods sake what are you on kat7? My hosting accounts INCLUDE set amounts of space and bandwidth. Again, any hosting client of mine can utilise this space if they choose to. Its about being true to my clients - something you obviously have absolutely no idea about. But by the way you talk you probably send your clients a bill if they want to use the space they have already paid for - this is the unethical system you are trying to support. Face it Linda, you are in the minority if you support only those few reseller hosts that prevent their reseller clients from using the space and bandwidth they pay for. God help anyone who hosts with you, you must take great delight in explaining to them your warped and destructive philosophy during your demands on them to pay you again if they want to use the space and bandwidth they have already paid for. But I think Host Gators's comment summed it up, I think they said something earlier like, if we allowed all our reseller to use the space and bandwidth they paid for we'd go broke. What does that tell you about them? What does that suggest to you about how many reseller accounts they must have on their servers?... and you talk about servers clogging down ... well look no further. And sadly, what does that tell you about you and your support for perhaps one of the most cleverly disguised scams this industry has seen. And there is no need to become vindictive in your comments. This forum is about discussions and opinions. I respect yours and will go to bed tonght and thank God you and your kind are in the minority. Rock on site5, coastinc, hostingzoom and the hundreds upon hundreds of other reseller hosts that do the right thing and ALLLOW their resller hosting account holders to actually use the space and bandwidth THEY HAVE BLOODY PAID FOR in the first place. Now go off and send one of your hosting customers a bill for wanting to use the space they have already paid for.....and while you are there, tell them about me and that I'll allow them to use the space they've paid for WITHOUT sending them a DAMN bill. If this is what you are all about you don't belong in this business Linda. Last edited by HappyPappy; 12-23-2004 at 08:25 AM.
Posted by Website Rob, 12-23-2004, 08:25 AM
There are all kinds of reasons for Server problems and only the Server owner/admin will ever know for sure. Although this thread has gotten waayyy off topic, let us make one thing clear: "Regardless of what business model is used, if Clients get what they paid for when they need/want it, that is good." After that it's a matter of each Server being properly maintained so that it runs as efficiently as possible. We can argue till the cows come home, as to whether "Allocated" or "Actual Use" is better. Fact is, Hosters will always offer one or the other and it is up to the individual to know which method they prefer, then choose a Hoster that offers it. I think the thread starter, among others, would prefer to get this topic back on track and hear from people with personal experience using HostGator.
Posted by swflnetworks, 12-23-2004, 08:25 AM
sigh* I know I said I wouldn't post in here again.. But Kat7, what you said in the first half of the post, accusing us of supporting, is exactly what we are NOT supporting.. We think we should be able to use 100% of the space we pay for, and that our customers should be able to use the 100% of the space they pay for.. THAT IS THE STANCE WE ARE ON! What you are accusing us of: "Selling 100 megs to individuals until the server is full, predetermining that they may only use %60 of it, and overselling the rest of it is EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE SAYING NO TO! Just read the post. I don't see how it could be too hard to read. It's right there. Everyone is taking our words and twisting them the wrong way, and of course when you do that, IT IS GONNA SOUND BAD! So.. don't twist the words, as they are meant to be read and understood as they are written, and not as they are interpretted and twisted by the reader. We believe we should be able to use 100% of our plan quota.. Then if we reach 100%, we should be able to choose that we need a higher plan. THIS IS WHAT WE THING IS FAIR! Other hosts (hince hince) stop you at 60%, just because they predicted that percentage because maybe that's what you used last month, and they need more money now because they oversold the server and you overran the percentage you had last month.. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SAYING NO FAIR TO! I can't make it any simpler, those are the plainest words I can pick.
Posted by anon-e-mouse, 12-23-2004, 08:33 AM
This has gone way over top of the the topic. If pappy and Eagle weren't in different countries, I would swear the they were twins, hmmmm still could be I guess