PremiumReseller.com .. watch out.

Portal Home > Knowledgebase > Articles Database > PremiumReseller.com .. watch out.

Posted by nanoplane, 06-05-2008, 10:07 PM
Ok, so I signed up based on reviews here and moved my accounts over.. but within a week, I've run into what I would consider a rather unreasonable limitation... I've been told that if I run a normal Cpanel backup on one of my accounts, that If the account is large, I will be suspended. This, to me is an entirely unreasonable position for the company to take..
Posted by Laci, 06-05-2008, 10:13 PM
how big of an account are we talking about?
Posted by nanoplane, 06-05-2008, 10:40 PM
I have two large accounts. One is about 600 MB, the other is about 3GB in size. I don't mind restrictions.. I offered to limit backups to only one account at a time to reduce the load... When I offered to limit my backups, I got the following response..: This message was sent from the helpdesk system http://support.premiumreseller.com ---------------------------------------------- Hello, The problem is the hosting account uses more than 1GB disk space. The account might be suspended when you run backup causing very high server load. ... If you want full backup, you can send request and we generate backup for you. Regards, Tony -------------------- Now it's nice of them to offer to generate the backup, (it wouldn't reduce the server load though..) but I wonder where they would keep it and how I would get it... I try to do a backup once every two weeks... creating a ticket every two weeks to do a backup would be a real pain. Note There were no restrictions on sub-account size in the SLA agreement that I could see. It's a 20GB hosting account... I haven't exceeded that total limit with all my accounts and all my backups...
Posted by JohnSH, 06-05-2008, 10:56 PM
That doesn't really make very much sense to me to be honest. A backup cannot possibly take that much server load usage.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-05-2008, 11:27 PM
You know, I wouldn't have thought so.. If I was setting this up, I would have the backups run as "nice".. this would mean that if nothing else was happening, they would use as much CPU as available, but would relenquish the CPU for any other task.. This would mean, of course that if you looked at the CPU usage during the backup, it would indicate 100% load.. at least on one CPU.. (unless the backups are threaded..) If I knew this was happening, it wouldn't bother me if I was my hosting company. :-).. They claim that I was backing up for over 12 hours at High CPU load.. I was backing up the two largest sites... 600M and 3G.. with redirection through scp to my own machine behind a cable modem.. (on a good day, about 1Mb per second.).. Data is compressed, so the total data transport is about 1G. time for transport is about 1000 seconds..(allow an hour).. meaning.. I have no clue where they are getting the "12 hours of backup" claim.. a good host is so hard to find...
Posted by nanoplane, 06-05-2008, 11:34 PM
One thing to note... the High load was real.. A while after I started the backup, I checked the server load and it was 8.xx on a 4CPU machine... I have no clue why... but from my own perspective, all I had done was start a backup.. I suspect a bug in Cpanel.. :-).. The sub-account was set up with 4GB of space. running the backup exceeded that (disk utilization showed 6GB of disk used).. If Cpanel and quota management were fighting one another, this may have been the cause.. Under this scenario, it should have been considered an anomaly rather than a reason to suspend the account..
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 12:23 AM
And, it's probably time to come clean on the heading on this one... The Reseller this is regarding is really PremiumReseller.com.. I moved my accounts and 7 domains to them less than a week ago... so far.. no so impressed.. wish it were otherwise.. And... after actually doing a search.. I truly apologize to Premiumhosting.com. I have no experience with them directly.. ... (I should check things out before I make something up..).. --marcel Last edited by nanoplane; 06-06-2008 at 12:32 AM.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 12:42 AM
Do you want to bring down the server when running backup at your free time or let us run backup in a managed way? Running backup of a 3GB website will surely cause the server load go up to 10+ If someone else is running backup at the same time, you know what might happen. Any provider will suspend the account when your action causes harm to other users on the server.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 12:48 AM
Just want to add one point, normal server load is less than 1 on the server you're using. We receive alert when server load is above threshold and will check immediately who is running what causing high load.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 12:56 AM
Running backup of a few GBs website will max cpu usage because of high IO.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 01:05 AM
I'm sorry, but I've been doing this for about 8 years now and I've never had a provider suspend me for doing a backup on one account.. and based on what responses have come through here, people seem incredulous that a backup would cause the load conditions you seem to indicate here.. I'm just trying to figure out what's reasonable. Based on my own experience and that of others, the statements you're making would seem to be unreasonable.. Of course, you have every right to impose whatever restrictions you want.. it's your company.. but I do believe it's important to let people know up front that they can expect to be suspended for performing a normal, supported operation like a backup to a remote host.. Just my $.02
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 01:07 AM
Uhh. high IO doesn't impact CPU usage.. in a unix environment, high IO actually reduces CPU utilization.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 01:09 AM
You signed up on the 1st of June, a few hours later send a transfer request (03:21 AM). You provided only reseller login while we require username and password for each account. We just went ahead, running backup for each account and transfer to our server. Transfer was completed in less than 4 hours (07:09 AM). That is not impressed? Other than the server load caused when you run backup, anything that is unusual on the server?
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 01:10 AM
You're right. High IO will cause the server not responding to anything, hence reduces CPU utilization. I believe that the cpu usage reported in cpanel includes IO wait.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 01:36 AM
No, that's not the case... Hi IO causes more CPU to be available to other threads (the ones performing IO are blocked, giving up the CPU to other processes..).. Hi CPU utilization is usually an indication of either runaway processes, (the usual infinite loop) or continuously running routines that use lots of CPU cycles... compression is absolutely one of those things..).. With respect to backups.. the only thing I can think of that would cause the utilization you reported would be a "bug" in CPanel :-).. And yes. the initial setup went very well. Transfer over was executed quickly.. In terms of the account information.. I did ask if you needed more than the root account login.. no response so I figured no additional data was required. The "non-impressed" parts? - a bit of arrogance in dealing with the problems I had with file ownership on the Gallery update issue.. (For those following along.... it appears older versions of Gallery created files with an owner of UID '99'.. In normal unix, this is a reserved UID. in Darwin, this is a UID that means whoever is doing something currently owns the file..(weird...).. I'm not entirely sure what linux does with it.. In any case, there were files with UID/GID = 99 and under the new hosting company and instance, Gallery wouldn't work.. Fantastico suggested an upgrade but the upgrade failed when trying to change the permissions on the files. In this case, I kept trying to get Premium to understand that I had no way to perform the task without changing the ownership of these files and they would need to do this for me.. They kept insisting I could do what was necessary by using FTP (of course not true.. since you can't change files you don't own or have permissions on.).. Long story short... Tony did finally perform the chown and everything was fine after that... At least until this issue of Backups came up.. and so soon.. I'm always willing to work to find reasonable options to solve problems.. I try to be as autonomous as possible and not cause a burden on the provider (it took 3 months of inaction by my old provider before I felt it necessary to finally move..). I'm a systems architect with AT&T and have been in IT for about 20 years. it's not like I can't figure most things out. The biggest issues I run up against in this environment is the inability to get close enough to the problem to figure out what's going wrong.. (too dang used to being able to poke around as an administrative user..)..
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 02:02 AM
The fact is normal server load is around 0.5 and other customers on the server are happy with their website loading speed. Tony did not say account *will* be suspended when causing server overload, but *might* be suspended. I'll let other hosts who manage a number of servers that run daily backup comment about "server load reported in cpanel" when running backup and whether high IO can cause server slowness (we're talking about backup a 3GB website). A cpanel backup includes both compression and high IO writing to disk. To be accurate, "server load" is not the same as "CPU usage" but people usually mix up these two. If you want to run backup, the most quiet time is after 6pm and before midnight. Please feel free to open a ticket if you have any specific concern that needs to be addressed by technical support. If you think that the way we operate/monitor server is unreasonable, you can cancel and request full refund. Thanks for considering our service.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 03:20 AM
Well If is was intentionally overloading the server or if some part of my code was loading the server excessively, then I would expect the processes causing the problem to be killed and have myself severely chastised for running bad code on the box... :-).. What I wouldn't think it reasonable to expect is that my account would be suspended for running a utility you supply for the task which it is intended. This just seems to me to be down right counter-intuitive. (here Mr customer, to do a backup, run this command.. it usually works, but if it blows up, we may suspend your account without warning). I do understand the site being backed up is large, but I haven't had this kind of an issue on other servers. I'm trying to think of a reason why it would take 12 hours to run the backup.. (I wonder if the script was fighting the quota system and just kept re-trying and failing...). My expectation is that CPanel simply reports one of the load average values from the kernel (via uptime or top probably...). it's not always a "reliable" indication of what's causing an issue but at least it's a number :-).. At any rate, thread's getting too long.. Once I make a decision to go with a provider, I do want to do whatever I can to stay with them.. PremiumReseller.com indicates a promise of being a good hosting company.. This issue just struck me unexpectedly and suggesting account suspension for following backup instructions posted on your own site just seemed to me to be a rather strange response to the issue.. respectfully --marcel
Posted by ldcdc, 06-06-2008, 05:50 PM
Thread title corrected.
Posted by Brian-de-vie, 06-06-2008, 08:33 PM
Hi chaps, I don't consider myself 'techie', but I have a little common sense, so I'd like to ask the OP a simple question. Why would you need to run back ups if you've only been with your new host for less than a week. I'm sure I'm not alone in that when I change host[which one has to accept can be 'fun'], I keep the 'old host' life for at least a month. So do you have your life sites on the new host, and originals on your old host, and you feel the need to run back ups at this point. Just seems a bit of overkill, when I would have thought now is the time to create the relationship with your new host, not spend your time making an extra back up & posting here, just seems a bit of a negative way to start. Accepting that you wish to have a plan in place for routine back ups & that you do not want to risk your account being suspended, why fight your new host ? Instead simply request that they do a bi-weekly back up for you. Then, you get what you want & the provider can do it for you at a time which will cause the least 'challenge' to there system. From what I see, premiumreseller have been well behaved, they have foreseen a potential problem, offered a solution, but you want to continue to moan about it. Seems to me the OP & host can debate the techie stuff untill the cows come home, but I'm far from convinced thats the real problem. Dare we ask the name of the old host & the reason you left ? The more information you share, the better picture we have.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-06-2008, 09:52 PM
Easy questions :-).. One of the reasons for leaving the old host was there were some issues that needed correction and they were simply not able to do so.. The new host was able to correct these and I wanted a full backup of the "stable" versions for my own archives.. So.. I do still have the old host around with the data intact.. just in case, but If I had to use it I would need to go through all the fixes again.. Second reason is that I've have 3 times in the past when I've depended on the hosting provider's backups to deal with a server hardware failure.. in all three cases, the provider's backups have been corrupted.. only the fact that I had been taking off-site regular backups saved my butt. Asking the provider to do the backups for me would be one solution, but I would need account twice the size of the total space rather than twice the size of the largest account.. Although I haven't asked if they would be able to backup to my remote site directly.. good Idea, I'll ask. The solution Premium reseller offered was that I create a ticket each time I wanted a backup. They would do the backup and make the file available for me to copy to my offsite. This is a less than desirable solution if my intent is to keep my offsite backups up to date.. I will ask about an automated bi-weekly option though.. I guess the complaint comes down to the fact that the provide provides documentation on their site for how to do backups.. there's no restrictions or limitations listed on that documentation. It just seems reasonable to be surprised when, if you follow those instructions, you suddenly my find your account suspended.. It would be nice to know any restrictions or limitations up front and what options are available to go beyond those restrictions. Those restrictions by the way seem a bit low... (I wonder what the 30GB accounts do for backups :-) In terms of what Premium did... They didn't tell me what they did, I had to find out that backups were disabled. no email letting me know that an issue had occurred.. no "Hey, your backup seems to have gone awry and is whacking out the server... we've suspended things until we can figure out an alternative..".. That would have been nice.. The company I moved these sites from: Commit1.com. a few too many reasons to go into detail.. including blacklisting, 3 month old tickets without resolution.. the previously mentioned server crashes and data losses.. Other than that, Anthony had always treated me well. always accessible. just too many issues with the hosting itself.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-06-2008, 11:51 PM
1. Do you have Backup Wizard option available in cpanel? 2. You're twisting the fact around to non-sense, from WILL suspend your account, to your knowledge about CPU threading to handle high IO. You're better argue with Intel and DELL how they design the server. 3. Another non-sense: "documentation on their site for how to do backups.. there's no restrictions or limitations listed on that documentation" You are using hosting on a shared server. Are you happy when someone else on the server causes your websites stop loading? When a provider says they support php & mysql, does that mean you can run buggy php script with bad mysql query that can affect other websites. A high-end dedicated server is suitable for your 30GB accounts.
Posted by Manageandsupport_com, 06-06-2008, 11:52 PM
If they are offering to back up the account for you, then I do not really see why you would mind this much .
Posted by nanoplane, 06-07-2008, 12:47 AM
The issues with high loading on the backup stuff is really pure software. Dell and Intel have not much to do about it.. And I didn't think I was saying that Premium "would" suspend my account if I did a backup.. just that they "May" suspend the account. My issue here was that I could be suspended for executing backups using the mechanisms they documented and provided... and that there was no indication in the documentation that this was a possibility... that's all. If I wrote a buggy script that brought the server down, I would fully expect to be suspended until I could guarantee the issue was corrected.. That wasn't the case here, I was using the mechanisms Premium defined for the task for which it was supposedly defined... The lack of limitations was targeted towards the backup instructions. I would have thought that if there were system restrictions on account size, those would be documented somewhere so us poor schmucks would know.. On the Backup Wizard:.. I tried the backup wizard on the account, but it seemed to not perform a complete backup.. (I don't know whether this was a result of the backup agent being suspended or not.. the backup log sent to me seemed to indicate some kind of suspended action was taking place.. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the wizzard just executed the same backup scripts in a more directed manner.. in which case, if full backups were being executed, it wouldn't have helped much.. There doesn't seem to be any scheduling functionality in the backup wizard. Look, my preference on all this stuff is to be as self sustaining as possible, hence my desire to do my own backups if at all feasible. If not, and Premium is willing to do biweekly automated backups as part of the service, great!. I would heartily accept!!.. so far, unless I'm misiterpreting, they haven't offered this. I'm perfectly willing to impose whatever constraints I can to limit backups to particular periods of time, check for server load, inform if I see any issues, etc. I don't have any control over the backup scripts themselves since they run under root.. If those scripts cause problems, all I can do is inform that something has gone wrong.. I'm willing to monitor the execution to keep track of this.. What I find difficult to accept is a requirement to create a ticket each time I need a backup ( I would think Premium would be reluctant to accept this as well, particularly if I want to run it every couple of weeks or so..) To do it right, in fact I would probably need to create separate tickets for each large site on separate days, so I don't exceed my available disk space. This would mean I would need to create a backup ticket each week to meet my needs.. Lastly, on the processor... The server is a 4 processor 2.8GHz intel box with 2GB RAM.. for Web Hosting purposes, I wouldn't consider this a small box.. It's pretty substantial as such systems go.. Again, I'm really surprised the backup caused such a high server load.. --marcel
Posted by nanoplane, 06-07-2008, 12:50 AM
I think if we can work out an option that provides a reasonable, automated schedule, I would have no problem.. ( I still think it's a lot less work for them to let me do all the heavy lifting..).. --marcel
Posted by nanoplane, 06-07-2008, 01:13 AM
man you should never get an IT architect talking... they just don't know when to quit...) Maybe a metaphor would help :-).. I work for AT&T the mobility side.. we sell devices from a variety of vendors.. so lets suppose we have a vendor who has a bug in their firmware that sometimes when you send a short text message, it goes into a loop and uses all our bandwidth resending the message thousands of times... (a hypothetical situation, of course...). If we, as AT&T went to the customer and told them "every time you send a text message, there's a possibility we will suspend your account because of a bug in the phone we sold you".. We, as AT&T would be raked over the coals.. I think we would be expected to handle the issue as transparently to the customer as possible, certainly not threatening any persistant suspension. To me, the right way to handle a situation like the one discussed in this thread is to kill the offending process and contact the customer to attempt to determine the root cause and correct it or establish a work-around so it doesn't happen again.. respectfully -- marcel
Posted by Sohan, 06-07-2008, 05:12 PM
In pure honesty, after reading this I'm not going to sign up here.
Posted by Brian-de-vie, 06-07-2008, 07:14 PM
To make any reasonable judgement based on one thread seems a little simplistic, may I suggest you do a search of WHT re. premiumreseller.com before you jump to any conclusions.
Posted by nanoplane, 06-07-2008, 08:04 PM
I agree with Brian.. The reason I selected Premium hosting was based on the great reviews.. I fully expect this little issue is just a minor bump.. (They've already appear to have re-enabled my backups..).. now it's just a matter of negotiation a reasonable set of criteria for when and how I get to do my backups.. I'll post an update when something is worked out.. --marcel
Posted by Hikari, 06-09-2008, 02:49 AM
Well, from my outside point of view, PremiumReseller.com support is too much rude, that's not necessary. Supposing that the OP is wrong, just talk to him and explain the situation, try to offer a solution, etc. I know you did that, but he got upset, I think because his account was suspended all of a sudden, and came here complain, and you answer being rude... nanoplane, be chill. If you are changing host, don't expect it to be like the former ones. This is not the first time I see situations related to scripted backups, maybe cPanel should have a way to limit backup size/time, etc. Anyway, if it doesn't have and host doesn't want its customers to go backing up stuff without control, don't just let it clouded hoping them to unkowning do it and then suspend their account as if they were criminals trying to hack your server :lol: If cPanel lacks quality on its backup solution, try to disable it and offer a better solution. I agree with nanoplane that needing to open a ticket everytime you want a backup is a pain. Maybe offer a deal where host schedules automatic backup and then the customer just finds it available to download on the combined time. Or anything like that. If host accepts a 3GB website, it must have a plan to lead with its backup. If he contracted a service that supports that size os website and host manually setted it up, they should have foreseen and proactivelly offered a scheduled backup. Anyway I hope you 2 find a deal or you find a better host asap. It is not good either to find a new host with a host fight on the package, so try to talk on live chat and let them know your needs and find a solution BEFORE contracting it.
Posted by Brian-de-vie, 06-09-2008, 08:20 AM
Hikari, You are giving the impression that you have not fully read & understood this thread, and that you are making wild leaps of assumption. I realy do encourage you to 're-read' this thread & search WHT [& google if you wish] re. PremiumReseller.com They are a very well respected host. The OP was frustrated when he opened this post [with some justification], but: 1. Both parties now seem to be communicating better & moving forward. 2. It could be considered that the OP started this thread a little prematurely, & could have tried to discus the 'problems[challenges]' in private for a little longer. Anyways I'm glad things seem to be moving in the right direction, and if I was to make any assumotions, it would be that: Premiumreseller will prove be a good host for the OP & they[PR] will not lose any sleep if Hikari does not want to become one of there customers.
Posted by Hikari, 06-09-2008, 10:20 AM
I read the first page and posted before going sleep Yeah I don't know PremiumReseller, but I don't see why they need to talk that way with him. Even if he is wrong, there's no need to start a fight with him. Even if he is a noob and ran a buggy code 1. that's what I said, PR should have talked to him instead of complaining here 2. I agree with that too, I said that 3. I also am glad I don't need their service and support because I'm happy with my host What I meant is, of one of them is wrong (and I say one of them because I think both are wrong in something) the other should try to talk and solve it, and then leave/refund and that's it. No need for any of them to come here complain AT THIS MOMENT. And also, if the backup feature was available with no limitation or warning, why the host complaint when he used it?
Posted by nanoplane, 06-09-2008, 10:24 AM
When I opened the post.. The intent was to see if I was nuts or not :-).. I've been hosting and running these little sites for about 8 years now and have never been given a threat of account suspension for running the backup scripts that the provider themselves supplied... I wanted to see if it was just me or if other people thought this was weird.. In my own industry, we always look at what to take away from any events, so here's my list as of today: I've discovered in my case, that I was running my one backup at the worst possible time : the same time the provider runs their own daily and weekly backups - after midnight on weekends. This certainly exacerbated the problem. I think shared resource resellers and those who host them should include more specific information in their documentation on Backups to indicate the best times to NOT run backups and a specific indication that any "runaway" backup process that exceeds some load criteria would be killed to protect the rest of the community.. I believe that if they don't already, Cpanel should set their backup scripts to have the option of executing "nice" (easy with linux hosts).. Note, This may result in counter-intuitive results when looking at the server load (you'll still have high load, but it wont matter much) a nice backup would take longer but wouldn't likely impact anything else running on the host. At least it would be fun to try.. As resellers, our goals need to be to provide a compelling environment for our customers to provide service and support their needs within the constraints of these shared environments we work within. When something happens that causes issues, I don't believe threatening the customer should be the first approach.. we need to recognize the problem, alleviate any immediate need, then work with the customer and our systems to do what we can to prevent future occurrences. Lastly,. this whole backup problem is easy to fix. If CPanel were to change the backup scripts to actually just put backup requests into a system wide Queue, we could configure the maximum number of concurrent backups for your system, preventing the problem from ever occurring.. --marcel
Posted by Tapan, 06-09-2008, 12:21 PM
Hi, Is there any discount coupon available for windows reseller package ? Thanks.
Posted by Tapan, 06-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Hi, Any host will put an objection if the some reseller is causing overload. Now you will say why ? Coz there are other resellers who are depending on that server. So due to 1 reseller other 9 resellers are suffering then there's going to be a problem. Just my 2cents. Thanks.
Posted by ldcdc, 06-09-2008, 12:39 PM
It's best to contact them via their site for pre-sales questions. You'll stand a good change of getting faster responses too.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-10-2008, 01:28 AM
You're better read carefully before posting. Anywhere in this topic saying that "his account was suspended all of a sudden"?
Posted by nanoplane, 06-10-2008, 02:42 AM
Tapan, I think the action you take needs to take into consideration what is causing the overload.. - If you discover that the load is caused by the reseller or one of their sub-accounts running a buggy script that they supplied themselves.. then yep, be upset as hell.. this is one of the reseller's responsibilities to make sure their customers don't violate the rules. - If you discover the load is caused by something you may have mistakenly told the reseller to do (what I believe was the case here), then I think the approach needs to be a bit more diplomatic.. particularly if this is the first time this has happened.. --marcel
Posted by rv_irl, 06-10-2008, 05:22 AM
I think it's important that both sides gain some understanding. The host must do whatever in their power to ensure the integrity of the server is not compromised. If they have to disable backups to do that, then that is their choice. But that said, a clear policy specifically related to backing up of large accounts would be wise. However, it does appear PremiumReseller has appeared slightly rude probably due to being more defensive than necessary or even because of language.. When responding to a public complaint, it is important to always maintain your professional image and composure. State the facts politely. Disagreements will only fuel more anger, but showing you understand the point of view of the OP can go a long way. Attempting to be witty is a poor choice to make. Hopefully something constructive has come out of all of this instead of just rants.
Posted by PremiumHost, 06-10-2008, 07:03 AM
Seriously noone is attempting to be witty here. We already give the OP different solutions/suggestions to choose.
Posted by Travis Rowland, 06-11-2008, 01:41 AM
I am with PremiumReseller and they have been excellent. I do believe there is a language barrier here, because when I read PremiumReseller's responses it seems as if English is not their first language; I would deduce that you would mis-interpret their emotions behind the emotionless text. It also seems to me that they have told you when a good time is to back-up, and as long as you are doing it during the specified times, and not in the middle of the day, I don't foresee an issue.